400 vs 600 discussion...again

keep in mind the ego centric part too... like people who cant ride a pace because their QS or Autoblipper are not working or my favorite... the TC interferes with my riding style...lol
Or the nitwits that crash in morning sessions at trackdays. All part of the landscape.

 

Yep...one thing all these current-day front runners have in common is that they'd still be in front of you, with or without their QS/auto blipper working...

 

yesss!!! i love shaming others! especially dumb newbies in this sport. buncha slow squids. no business being on the track!

amirite?

 

nah thats the A group Im talking about. What I find most disturbing is the way some providers plant the "helo seed scare" at the riders meeting instead of removing some of the butterfly burden and tell folks to relax & have fun. But no they gotta go banging the helo gong. Also chastising a group for the infractions of a few... almost like gov't management...lol

 

right... you'll be fast when you get your own lunch break session... hehe

 

I have run many tank ranges during the day and at night plus ranges for a lot of other weapons systems and have given many briefings prior to the start of the range. I wanted my soldiers to enjoy the training but I also let them know that what we are doing is dangerous and if you don't do what you are supposed to do somebody may get seriously hurt or killed. I did not punish the whole group for the actions of a few as that is poor leadership but the group needs to look out for and help to police the actions of other members of the group as the safety personnel/coaches cannot be everywhere. It is hard to balance the fun factor with the danger factor but the rider's meeting sets the tone for the day's activities and people need to know that going fast is great but do it in a responsible manner and respect your fellow rider.

 

Ive had two friends buy a 600 after tracking only 1000s in A group for years. They both complained about how difficult it was to go fast - "The bike is too nervous. Theres too much shifting. You gotta try too hard to go fast. Etc." One went back to 1000s and the other has a 750 now. If I was being judgemental, Id say they were presented with an opportunity to learn more but they bailed. But really, building skills and getting faster isn't for everyone. Some riders are content with where they are at, and there's often nothing wrong with that.

 

Ahhh finally to my point.
Does anyone know a track day organizer that has a separate class so litre bikes and 300/390/400s are not on track the same time as the big bikes?
If not my opinion is racing a small bike is safer and more fun and a way better learning curve than riding one at a track day on track with the big bikes. It really isn’t rocket science. Again JMHO

 

I think the answer is what Midwest Track day is doing and other providers too are going to four groups: Novice, Intermediate 1, Intermediate 2, Advanced. 15 minutes each. Basically slow intermediate and fast intermediate. I have been blasted by literbikes on my stock SV650 in intermediate and have gone back to novice out of fear of idiots with too much horsepower. I considered quitting track days. Intermediate 1 should be much better for us smaller bikes, I hope.

 

I won’t ride A group with my 300 with STT. There are some orgs that have a lot of little bike presence , and I’ll ride in their A groups on the little bike. Most STT days are nearly all 600s or 1000s, from what I see.

 

I don’t know the right answer, but when our kids were coming, up the main track day group put the kids, who were mostly on 125s, in the fast group.

In the riders meeting it was announced and generally the kids could run 1:37-44 lap times and the fast guys with 600s and 1000s ran low 30s sometimes cracking in the 29s. This was at AAA speedway in Fontana.

I felt safer with the kids getting blitzed by the big bikes, versus running in the slower groups with guys who didn’t know what they were doing.

Unlike what some others are saying, when we raced it did seem to me like the meat grinder 600 class wasn’t quite as safe as the 1000 class. 600s just seemed to have more guys, including all our kids when they stepped up, really willing to let it all out and not worry about work on Monday morning.

Seemed like the 1000 class, at least out here 6-10 years ago, was generally some fast pros and many experienced guys, not trying to be the next Rossi.

 

Reading all this about little bikes at trackdays just makes me feel bad for anyone trying to learn on a low HP bike. I rode a 300, 390, and 400 at Laguna for a day in B group. It was great fun. But if I didn’t have the skill to pull away from most of the bigger bikes, it would have been maddening. You low HP riders def put up with a lot of shit.

 

Just curious what is “a lot of shit”.
Besides the same old “ they pass me on the straight and have lunch in the corners”. I’ve been working my way up and still have a ways to go. But I’ve seen bad riding on everything from a 125 to a Hayabusa. Always thought it was odd when people cover any group of riders under one broad stroke.

 

You just have to be a bit more patient in some instances on a little bike in the A group at a trackday. Good riders will disappear from you on 600's and 1000's and those that arenlt as good can be dealt with by either giving them a little room to get the apex before you so they can drive off before you get there. I never had much trouble on the little bike if my head was working corrctly.

 

There are a million things that riders in slower groups do poorly on the track. That’s y they are in that group. It’s not painting with a broad stroke - it’s by definition.

If you are a 300 rider running the same lap times as someone on a 1000, you definitely do fewer things poorly. But you will encounter other ppl on track and will have to deal with their poor execution. That can diminish you fun and is definitely a barrier for learning.

With the organizations that I’ve ridden with, B group is the most erratic and unsafe. It’s like riders have gained just enough speed to get into more trouble, but not enough skill to manage it. Being stuck in that plus all the downsides of being surrounded by bigger bikes sounds less than ideal. Riding a little bike in A group sounds much better in comparison.

 

Well that post makes a little more sense because it included everyone in the slower groups which would also include people on the small bikes. People on all bikes of different skill sets have things to deal with. Your previous post made smaller bike riders sound like the victims. There are good and bad riders on all size bikes. No one has it any worse.

 

Not quite. On a big bike you can pass on the straight. On a little bike in the B and I groups, you can get stuck behind a park and shoot rider that is using late (sometimes very late) apexes. For the rules of the group it can be impossible to get around them even if they are one or two seconds a lap slower. Not a safety issue, but definitely can be a frustration and lack of fun issue.

With that said, I am having more fun doing track days on my SV right now and am going to sell my 2003 R1 shortly, but I ride in A group most of the time (EvolveGT). When I go out with N2 in Intermediate I work on passing practice and occasionally I do get a little frustrated. I can always just pit in and find some other R1s and R6s to pass.

For slower riders on little bikes, don't worry about those passing you. It is their responsibility to do so safely and within the group rules. If you are getting passed by folks violating the group rules, try to get the bike #, leathers and/or helmet color, name on leathers whatever you can and let a coach or organization know. They can't fix problems they don't know about. Having a coach follow you for a session should cut down on that at least issue for that session as well.

 

Skill sets being equal you’ll find windows you can ride and have fun. Like you said the pit in/out is a great option. If you ride better/faster than the guy in front pass. If your being passed correctly try to get a tow. Understanding within reason. The only frustration I’ve encountered on a track day that seems will never change is when I was in the slower groups was the conga line and the idiots that would catch up and break all the passing rules. And those people rode all sizes of bikes. I never caught a line and figured I was faster than everyone in it. Just the leader.

 

I don’t know about any track day orgs that do that. However it is important to note that I still have a blast doing track days despite being down on power. It’s just all about the mind set. I don’t have to be the fastest guy out there. I usually take it easy the first few sessions anyway. Later in the day the groups get thinner and I’m in my groove so I can pass people and leave them behind no problem in the B/Intermediate group.

 

"I can pass people and leave them behind no problem in the B/Intermediate group". Sounds like you should be in the A group. Or racing. But I may have already said that. My last track day I rode my FZR400 in the Advanced/Racer group. 20 riders in the class counting me. All were Racers, all but me on litre bikes.
Packed up and left after 3 sessions with after multiple very close passes at a ridiculous difference in speed on the straights. And no nobody passed me in the corners but it was still not fun. I ran one race with that bike and was on track with 300/390/400 bikes in a different class and a couple of FZRs. Mixed it up with a lot of bikes safely and fun. Won my class. While I may or may not race the FZR400 again I know for certain I won't ever take it to a track day where 1000s are on track with 400s.
Track day clubs group riders by skill level. So do racing organizations with the added benefit of bike performance factored in. Just makes sense and no track day clubs that I know of have figured that out,