Concrete guys. Teach me the game...

So, my nephew is starting to do some concrete jobs on the side. He has came to me and ask about the billing side of things and make sure he bills the job correctly. So we talked about making sure any materials are cover, any rental fees as in special equipment he may need to rent,and plan for the worst and try to cover all angles.

What I dont know is, does the installer charge per hour, by square foot, do you charge prep work one way and laying and finish work another way?

How does the concrete game work?

His next job is roughly 4in think 17x34 pad with a fine broom finish no sealer.

How would the breakdown of that job look with cost of boards for the form, pins, gravel, renting a mini excavator to prep the spot, concrete and labor?

 

There are only a few pump trucks around here and they get a premium.
Factor that in when looking at the site and pricing a job.

 

Can't really factor in the cost of setup materials. And i wouldn't put on paper to the customer, a bobcat or mini-excavator charge. That would just be factored into the estimate.

Customer can/should pay for materials such as the concrete, the gravel if needed, rebar or mesh, etc...

578 sq ft= 7 yds @ $150 yd w/tax.......$1100

Total of 3 guys to do the work, $250 ea helper....So $500 in labor, not counting the 'boss'.

I'd charge $1500 OTD, customer buys the concrete, gravel, rebar...or your nephew buys it up front and adds the cost of materials into the bill.

All inclusive estimate to customer....$3000

A lot of other factors of course....How much prep work/excavation? How is the concrete going to be placed....bobcat, buggy, wheel barrow, line pump?

Small sq footage work can't be broke down by the square foot. A 5000 sq ft slab isn't going to bring as much per sq ft as 100 sq ft sidewalk. So on smaller jobs like a 17x34 patio, i do 3x the labor. $500 in labor, $1500 bill. $500 to the helpers, $500 in my pocket, $500 in taxes/misc expenses/WC/insurance...roughly.

 

Most guys i know priced it for the job or per sq ft.

When i was looking for a crew for mine thats how they quoted.

I'm sure they broke down their costs but when its time to quote just give a number.

Now if he is doing site prep and such he may want to break that out in case there are some issues he can add in other charges.

The way you dont get stuck is spell out exactly what the quote covers....

 

How long do concrete galoshes have to cure before they can be used?

 

Not long at all if the wearer's fingers can't, for whatever reason, untie the lashings on the burlap sacks placed over said galoshes.

 

The biggest factor to determine a price is location accessibility. Can I get a Bobcat and a concrete truck to the site? An average price around here for a broom finish patio is $7-$10 per square foot. There are guys considerably higher than that.

 

Why wouldnt you factor in the cost of setup materials?

I understand not putting it on paper to the customer and just handing them a quote that says $xxxx for complete job basically, but the cost of 2x4 and all the items to form it should be added in, I would think.


You can get a pick up truck to the site but no concrete truck, says concrete will be buggied to the pad.

Also, can this job be done with a one man crew? I believe he isnt on any time crunch. So could do prep one day, form another, and then poor and finish. Is this possible?

 

That $7 to $10 that is plus materials correct?

Do you mark up the cost of concrete?

 

Those prices cover everything, material and labor. I never give a per foot price, just a total price to the customer. 568 sq ft is a lot for a one man crew, even if he is a master concrete guy. It's just too much labor, there's close to 30k lbs in concrete. Material (concrete and base) is about $2.50 per foot.

 

How to quote stuff is the hardest part of the job. Almost any goober thats been doing something for a few years can learn to do the entire job properly and profitably, but learning how to quote stuff without losing your ass is part artform, part science, and part luck. Unless of course you work for time and materials billed after the fact.

When I quote machining/fab jobs I try and factor in setup, tooling, material a whole bunch of different factors, then I look at the number and do a gut check. Sometimes I'll double it right then and there if I've got a bad feeling. Then when the customer says yes too quick to that price I know I'm still fucked lol. Sometimes wonder if I'd be better off throwing darts.

I've never done concrete, but the same process applies to any job. Get to know your costs, how much labour is required for each step of the job, periodic maintenance on equipment, rental fees, etc. There always a bunch of hidden stuff that you don't factor in on a day to day that you should or it will eventually eat you. Materials can sometimes be a variable, but if you get enough job under your belt you should be able to come up with a good baseline #, and can adjust from there. Write it all down or keep track of it in a spreadsheet. Eventually you'll be able to shoot from the hip and get pretty damn close.

 

I struggle with the same thing. We have 3 machine shops we use in my day job and the quotes come across my desk so I get a decent exposure to the numbers. My side work is often 1 off stuff and shops are all over the place in those situations.

 

I find there's a lot of variables in machine work, because there so many different way to get to the end result. What is a gravy 2 setup part for one shop, can be a multi setup, multi hour part for another. Hourly rates for machines vary quite a bit too. Different tooling and processes make a difference too. Some styles of parts are just natural fits for some shops and other can have a real tough time with it. There is no one size fits all formula of pricing scheme.

We rarely take on outside machine work, maybe 10-20 jobs a year, the bulk of our work is fixtures, and I've got that process pretty dialed in. Quoting job shop type stuff is all over the place. Most customers don't really have any exposure to the actual manufacturing side either, so they struggle to see just how and why their parts can vary so much in costs from shop to shop. On more that one occasion I've been told I'm trying to screw somebody when they say my # is more than double that of another guy. I've learned to just say as politely as I can, that they should get the other guy to do it then . Learning when to say no to a job is a often overlooked part of the process. It really sucks when you're paying a customer to make something for them lol. I've done that more times than I care to admit

 

I never let a client buy materials. Ever. You're leaving free money on the table. I won't do the project if I don't have complete control.

Two ways I do it...

Figure all rental/material costs, add percentage (25-30% min.).

Figure all rental/material costs, and how much the job is worth doing for you.

While similar, they're different. Scope of work is normally the determining factor.

Present price.

 

Having said that, 99% of my work is cost plus, so the process is much simpler.

 

I've been doing this shit for longer than some here have been alive, and I still do a lot old school. This is an estimate for an acoustical ceiling. This is how you bid work. The second item is the bible. Yeah, Means books are newer and fancier, but Walker's is the bible.

 

+1

I would like to add....I'm not a concrete guy but my T/M jobs never have as high profit % as my bid jobs when done properly.

T/M jobs are a necessary evil for us however as some of the auto plants/powerplants/machine shops in town end up having my guys waiting for hours on end sometimes.

 

Everyone's situation is different, and so is the bidding process. It really helps to know your competition, and what their price might be if you know the client is getting multiple bids. You have to sell your product and yourself, make them think you're the guy for the job even though you might be higher. We aren't selling cars, we are selling our service. If you're good at it, and have a reputation for top quality work, you can almost name your price. People like to brag what their latest project costs, and to show off.

 

I'm calling BS What architect gives us a 6' clearance above the ceiling anymore? LOL
We're just slightly above this, I still use red pencils for layouts but moved up to an Excel Spreadsheet for takeoffs.

 

Good point

New Air National Guard facility...Plenty of room above. The kid across the hall from me is Timberline and all computer. I can still take off the same project as him in the same amount of time. Timberline is handy when it's material time. I'm just too old to change now.