400 vs 600 discussion...again

the problem is some self certify themselves intermediate... so a guy with a liter bike can blitz straights and literally park his bike in a 100mph turn. Some specify outside of a turn passing only... even worse...lol. Some events just arent for beginners or I/B group types. Of course you dont know til you ride with them...
trying to practice passing on TD yahoos... your race license should be questioned.

 

I hear you. Riding my stock motor SV in advanced group is a hoot. It is fun dicing with the 600s that I am doing similar lap times with. Assuming rider skill being equal, my SV with 180lb on it isn't really faster than a well tuned 400 with some 110lb kid on it. 130mph is about it.

Riding the SV in Intermediate groups can be frustrating when trying to make a pass within the rules (like N2's outside before apex, inside after apex). It can be easy to wind up taking chances you wouldn't have to take in Advanced. Example: trying an outside pass where the person you are passing is already wide: " I didn't realize that track was this dirty out here!" as I catch a couple of small front end slides. Not fun. I did finish the pass, but won't try it out that wide again.

Bottom line:
Advanced track day or race, get whatever puts a smile on your face, although you will likely learn faster on a smaller bike.
If you are an Intermediate track day rider and not looking to race, get a 600 / 675 / 750 or even a 1000 if you have the tire budget and don't mind changing tires fairly often.

 

Duuude...that's leader bike...

 

You probably shouldn't have a race license if you're in Intermediate group or lower with most track day orgs lol

 

Uhhh.

is this some kind of racer elitism? Because intermediate track day pace riders are fine to come out and race.

sometimes the people in here are a weird bunch. Racers that are too good for trackdays. Meanwhile I see MotoAmerica and sometimes MotoGP guys ride trackdays to get a feel for certain tracks.

riding the track is riding the track. Just because your session starts with a green flag and ends with a checkered doesn’t make you any better than a track day rider.

it’s hard enough in this sport. Starting racing is an intimidating feat for some, and the attitude of “intermediate trackdays riders or below shouldn’t hold a race license” certainly isn’t helping.

 

I started racing WERA when I was in I group (albeit, with N2). I've had a very successful career as a WERA back marker ever since!

 

So are you trying to join Mongo in killing road racing or something? Do you want the "Come and race at a track day because we are friendly not elitist" groups to take over road racing?

 

No it's not, but to each their own. I'm not saying racers are better people than track day riders and should look down on them. I started out with track days and still do track days after 10 years. But I've seen enough people get into racing that are slow as shit and it's really cringe-worthy and in some cases plain dangerous to see. A couple of years ago there was a guy racing around here at NJMP and Summit Point who was getting lapped twice in just about every sprint race. He was about 40-45 seconds slower than the top guys on the grid and about 30 seconds slower than the next slowest person. He was a rolling hazard. I've seen a few like that which are so far off the pace it's not even funny. There's a time and place for everything and IMO if you're at that level, practice more at track days in the appropriate group until you get better. No sense putting yourself and others at risk only to get lapped in every single race.

Same goes for pro racing, with guys doing the 200 or MA races just to say they've done it. Yeah I can do that too, but I'd be a backmarker and be in the way of the top guys by the end of the race when they come through to lap me. If you're way off pace, you're not doing anyone any good. Stick to a more appropriate and competitive level where you can improve more.

 

Huh? No. Quite the opposite. I think some of you misunderstood my comment. I'm not advocating for "if you're an intermediate track day guy, don't even think about racing". I meant it more for "if you're a racer and you're doing track days, don't be a sand bagger in the intermediate group...you should be in advanced group". I've been promoting club racing for years and always try to get people to start racing. But not when they're beginners or really slow. Once you get to a higher level in terms of bike control, lap times, being comfortable with close passing, etc. then go for it.

 

except that’s exactly what you said.

guess so

 

Maybe some experts haven't been on a bike in years, and just want to get their race legs in the intermediate group, before running the advanced group. If/when I hit my next track day, I'll start in intermediate, and then decide if/when to move up. Not a big deal. Not all of us are 25 anymore.

 

nothing wrong with that but there are people in the middle groups that couldn't put 2 laps of perfect apexes together at 1/2 speed let alone keep enough room for someone to go around them. Don't get me started on the "checking their 6 idiots" with body language screaming Im going to obstruct your path around me or "Just saw the checkered at start/finish... let me chop the throttle!"
Just ego maniac stuff.

 

At @turbulence , @TurboBlew , @cha0s#242 , @sbk1198 and @mpusch

I forgot to mention that I do have a primary/backup GXSR 600s. Both run and pass tech. Trying to sell the backup for some small-litred fun.

- D

 

Last summer, I rode with a new org and, so, they put me in the lowest group. That was dangerous. I came up on a pack of 6-8 bikes going three wide down the left-half to mid track. I eased off braking to go down the inside and a rider from "lane 2" shot to the right and almost into me. I almost froze, then instantly realized braking wasn't going to avoid a collision so I swerved farther to the right. Thankfully, there wasn't a bike to my right. The TD org did try, all day actually, to spread the group at pit out to avoid roaming packs.

One nice thing about the roaming packs was, once you got by, it was a clear track for while.

 

Except for I didn’t. maybe it was worded a bit poorly. What’s with all the judgmental stuff all of a sudden? It’s OK to not agree with absolutely everything that someone else says. As far as I can remember we have typically agreed with each other’s posts for the most part on here. Now there’s one thing that maybe we don’t see eye to eye on and you’re ready to jump my throat about it lol Let it go. That’s fine if you think everybody should be out racing but I also think it’s fine to think that only people that have displayed a certain level should be out racing. To each their own.

 

I am in my fifties and a few years ago I purchased an R3 to do track days on after a 20-year hiatus from racing or track riding. I placed myself in the novice group with the mindset of basically starting over which was fine for a few sessions but with a no passing in corners rule it quickly became frustrating and nonproductive.

I spent a lot of time in the intermediate group getting back up to speed while re-learning the importance of being smooth, carrying corner speed around correct lines, setting up passes, etc. which the small bike is perfect for. As my pace picked up it became an exercise in “dodging bullets” and downright scary at times especially with the no inside passing (in corner) rule on a full to capacity track. Add this to large packs riding over their heads, drag racing between corners while parking it after every straight and it was time to move to the advanced group where yes, I get passed all the time, but most advanced riders should not have any issue passing, after all it is a track day. I get passed less often when riding my GSXR 750 but man it's a workout compared to the R3.

My first race was in 1987 and I regret not starting on a smaller bike, the learning curve was steep. For me the little bikes are easy to learn on and bad habits that equate to slow lap times are magnified plus they are inexpensive and the fun factor is huge.

The only problem with my R3 is it is not a 400.

 

it’s a message board where people have discussions and often times disagree.. if you’ve got an intermediate level or below set of feelings where you get offended by someone disagreeing with you, maybe you shouldn’t be on a message board.

 

I think that until any track day organizers run an UltraLightweight group even not based on skill level then 300 class bikes are better off racing than track days. Speed is not dangerous. Difference in speed is dangerous.
A race class with maybe a dozen bikes that are close in performance is a way better place to learn than any, repeat any track day group at any skill level with litre bikes on track with 300s.
JMHO.

 

I have had a few close calls in my 13 years of track days. Never was one of those involving a 250 or 300. Well except the time I didn’t see the rider signal they were pitting out because there was a rider between us when they signaled, but that had nothing to do with the bike and it wasn’t really that close.

If you are drafting someone as they come up on a 300 or worse you are the 3rd in line, I could see how that could go bad for sure. So don’t be drafting at track days. That way you can look ahead and/or have time to react.

 

If you race, track days are a great full practice day to focus on fundamentals to learn to go faster.

Track Days are also a great intro to closed course riding that may inspire someone to race.

Racing has an advantage in that participants are grouped based on their equipment aka bike. Based on the technical rules, machines should be similar and thus speeds shouldn’t be that drastically different. It’s a lot about rider ability at that point.

Either way. We all start our journey in this sport somewhere.

I finally said “fuckit” and signed up for a few wera rounds last year. Had me a fuggin blast too.