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Another Boeing 737 Max-8 crash

Discussion in 'General' started by SPL170db, Mar 10, 2019.

  1. RossK6

    RossK6 Grid Filler

    Honestly, it sounds like you may not be able to create a tool to save someone whose training is so inadequate that their “experience” leads them to do the thing that will kill everyone.
     
  2. speedluvn

    speedluvn Man card Issuer

    From my understanding, I'm not a pilot but strongly considered a career in aviation, but I don't see an issue with the current hours method. Airline pilots are not bus drivers, this is not to slight the bus driver position but with the automation of the cockpit you need a competent pilot and a reasonably astute and confident co-pilot to depend on when things don't go as plan or systems fails, even though you may have triple redundancy on the various systems.

    I believe when you have a training only method the situation becomes what we are curently seeing now.
     
    ducnut likes this.
  3. baconologist

    baconologist Well-Known Member

    Risk management and the lawyers will push you to eliminate as many human variables as possible. ie; Toyota safety sense, Subaru eyesight, Volvo, for some easy to correlate examples
     
  4. ChemGuy

    ChemGuy Harden The F%@# Up!

    Yep.
    Colgan was the crash that caused a change in the ATP rules for regionals and such.
    Stupid pilot tricks.
     
  5. Newsshooter

    Newsshooter Well-Known Member


    But you don't get those hours in a 737, you're in a king air twin or something similar to get the multi complex time and then you need to work towards hours for the ATP rating. You could be building your hours teaching in a 172. Think there's a lot of transfer to a complex multi from there?
     
  6. Rebel635

    Rebel635 Well-Known Member

    You see it in all aspects of society. The dumbing down of systems and the automation of safety systems that leads to laziness.

    Just look at blind spot detectors. Newest generation of car drivers simply doesn’t visually check their blind spot anymore cuz the new cars will beep at them, until they don’t.

    Same with airplanes. Spend 30 minutes Entering info like a data cruncher, taxi, take off then hit AP, or if you’re filling frisky, rotate 3 dials for airspeed, altitude and direction.

    But they’re supposed to have lightning quick reflexes and know exactly what to do when something does go wrong?
     
    baconologist likes this.
  7. baconologist

    baconologist Well-Known Member

    As of a few years ago you could FO a corporate jet with a Commercial ticket
     
  8. speedluvn

    speedluvn Man card Issuer

    From my understanding of how the rating sytem worked, it's as you described gaining ratings. But as you move up into the ratings your gaining hours as well as experience. You should be in a cockpit, a small cockpit, until your hours & experience and training dictate. Not this get to the largest plan in the least amount of time that we apparently have now.
     
  9. speedluvn

    speedluvn Man card Issuer

    That gig was yet another step towards the major airlines, where you were perceived, as arriving.
     
  10. vfrket

    vfrket Lost Member

    Which is odd because in TPS the human in the loop is the most valuable asset for safety and continuous improvement.
     
  11. HPPT

    HPPT !!!

    I think you need more information on this.
     
  12. Motofun352

    Motofun352 Well-Known Member

    Of course I do....so do they.
    By the way...why prevent the US from working on the problem? If safety is the paramount concern then it would behoove them to have the manufacturer in on it.
     
  13. Gino230

    Gino230 Well-Known Member

    The Colgan Air Crash that changed the regs- the Captain was what they call in the business "min standards" meaning he was a shitty stick and rudder pilot. But it's hard to fire people these days (let's kill some lawyers!) He stalled the aircraft on approach. Meanwhile, the FO on that flight had 250 hours Total Time. She retracted the flaps during the stall, only she knows why. Maybe because that's what they did in the Cessna during stall recovery? As a result, the new laws require an ATP rating (1500 hours), AND, the training has to be part of an FAA approved program like an airline or major flight school, so you can't just show up to the FAA office with an airplane and take the ATP check ride. They want tighter controls over the quality of the rating.

    The Asiana crash- This was a 777 (Boeing product) and the Captain was receiving training (final step of the checkout) he had just come from Airbus Captain. What you have to understand to figure out the accident is that the Airbus throttles do not move as the power changes. You put them in the detent for takeoff and then the "auto thrust" (or whatever they call it on the Airbus) adjusts power for you, but the throttle never moves. Boeing has a different philosophy. The auto throttles, when engaged, will also be controlled by the computer, but they do it by moving the thrust levers- the levers are what command the power you get, the auto throttles just move the levers. They were descending at idle thrust with the autopilot approach mode armed. It normally would have captured the glideslope and the power would have increased automatically. When the glideslope didn't capture (it was NOTAMED out of service), they disengaged the autopilot and leveled off- but the auto throttles were disengaged also and the power didn't come up. Coming from the airbus, he wasn't expecting the throttles to move- In the Airbus they would not have moved, and the power would have come up anyway. But the thrust stayed at idle and the airspeed decayed. Why nobody in a 3 man cockpit called out "AIRSPEED" is another critical factor- blame the culture / training? Either way, it was crappy stick and rudder flying.

    I landed in SFO 3 days later and saw the burned out hulk sitting there- that was a nasty sight.

    Our manuals, and the culture at our company, encourages hand flying proficiency. Up until a year ago, we also had the -300's on property which were all round dials (no fancy glass displays), and no auto throttles so you had to do some stick and rudder flying. Also, our operation is conducive to alot of hand flying- average 3 flights a day so lots of takeoffs and landings- vs. a large airplane flying international where you might get 2 landings a month. I would say 98% of Major US airline pilots are good stick and rudder pilots. Mostly because the pipeline we came through required it. There was more levels to pass in order to work your way up. As a civilian, you used to have to come up through the turboprop ranks before graduating to jets and that tended to weed alot of guys out, autopilot or not.

    IMO where the autopilot becomes a crutch and masks a pilot's inadequacy is in the training / simulator environment. It's common nowadays at the regionals to get people who may have 1,500 hours flying Cessnas but have never flown a jet. Things happen very quickly. It's hard to get people through training without the autopilot. They will be using 100% of their attention flying the plane, and will fall behind on programming, weather, checklists, etc., all the scenarios they need to learn in order to pass training. Things happen alot faster at 400 knots vs. 100. So they train them to use the autopilot and be more of a manager. Hopefully, when they get out to "the line" (daily flying) they will get some hands on experience and learn to fly the thing by hand.

    The current pipeline includes going to a flight school, getting your ratings, then buzzing around Florida building time to get to 1,500. Maybe 16 months to 2 years. Then basically ANY regional will hire you. In other countries, there are tremendous opportunities. I know some guys who's kids are instructing at larger flight schools like L4 in Sanford. They take these Chinese guys up for hours on end trying to get them oriented. Some do great. Others, not so much. They used to let them build time with other students (no instructor), but they were landing in Pahokee (PHK), a small strip near Lake Okeechobee, tying down the airplanes and letting them idle so the hour meter kept going, and taking naps. Probably how our esteemed Ethiopian "Senior check captain" got his 8,000 hours. OK, now I'm just being a dick. But it DID happen!

    Sorry for the long dissertation. Hope you guys are still awake.
     
  14. RGV 500

    RGV 500 OLD, but still FAST

    I checked with the glider club at the airport that I fly out of about flying the tow plane just for the seat time. I was told that you need 500 hours flight time before you can even be considered for sitting in that seat. Many thanks to all those who made it such a PITA to do anything new that will help others and build flying time.
     
  15. tzrider

    tzrider CZrider

    Shit, it can't be worse than asking Mongo for white plates?......
     
  16. ChemGuy

    ChemGuy Harden The F%@# Up!

    I thought the Colgan FO had more TT than that...but not much turbine time. Also the captain added power but pulled up instead of pushing.....oops.

    I've only had one oops moment like that, stall warning during gusty approach in IMC. Didnt put in enough guest factor to my approach speed. Hearing the stall horn while in the clouds 500-600ft above ground gets your attention. I added power and pushed the nose a tad lower....stabilized it and landed. If I had pulled up instead it wouldn't have been so pretty...maybe I would have crashed into Mongis house...:D

    The only good thing to come out of the 1500hr rule here is the regionals had to finally start paying better, so that's nice.

    But yes they are screaming for pilots with 1500hrs....there are a couple guys I know from a flying forum that changed careers mid life to fly professionally. One guy was into his late forties or fifties when he switched from lawyer, I think.

    There was a young guy that got his commercial/CFI cert when he was 20 or so. He taught for ~1 yr, got his time then started as FO st a regional and after about 1yr there upgraded to captain.

    So within 3 yrs or so he went from private to captain of a CRJ. I think his company has flow to DL or AA so he will be there within a couple years, tops.


    Edit....@gino230 that sounds like the ET captain had a lot of P51 time.

    Parker P51 pen time that is:D
     
    Gino230 likes this.
  17. Jed

    Jed mellifluous

    If you're low time but commercial rates can you fly for Lab Corp or other courier type services?
     
  18. Gino230

    Gino230 Well-Known Member

    I have never heard of this at any airline. Not saying there aren't pilots that don't regularly engage the autopilot at 2,000 and disengage it at 500 on approach, but the most common is hand flying to 10,000 or so, then disengaging on approach somewhere. But as a policy, no.

    The Airbus is designed for low-ish time pilots and even when disengaged, the fly-by-wire is more like an autopilot than your average Boeing product, it limits your inputs and limits the bank, pitch, airspeed, and other parameters.
     
  19. G 97

    G 97 Garth

    I can’t believe the side sticks on the airbus aren't linked. That’s just crazy.
    The new Gulfstream G-500 and G-600 went with sidesticks but only after they found a suitable way to link them. But to hear the Airbus not having them linked floored me.
     
  20. Gino230

    Gino230 Well-Known Member

    I'm floored by alot of those flight control laws in the Airbus system- but I'm not really qualified to comment on them because I haven't flown them or been trained on them.
     

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