Learning to spin the rear

A guy who mentored me in the flying business many years ago has a 17 year old son, he had never been on a motorcycle before last year. He took the classes, and Dad decided to keep him on the track rather than turning him loose in South Florida to wear Mohawks glued on his helmet and wheelie down the expressway.

He got a Kawi 250 and he started with track days, then amateur racing. I have been "coaching" him when our schedules overlap. He has some natural ability and is taking to the basics like a duck to water. He has had some success racing the 250 and after he turned 18, against everyone's advice he bought himself an R6.

I am trying to explain to him that this aint the 250, you can't just whack the throttle open. His bike placement is getting pretty good but he's very tentative with the gas.

He is asking me for advice here and I just keep telling him to open the throttle smoothly when the bike is pointed where he wants. Look to your exit point, Straighten the outside arm to slightly lift off the tires edge, the first 10% of throttle opening needs to be slow and smooth, etc.

But really, this has never been a strong point of mine, so I feel like there's more he could be learning from someone faster.

FWIW I've already suggested he rent a dirt bike and do some riding, focus on corner exits. I think if I could get him to be comfortable getting the rear working on exit, he could be pretty fast!

 

Get him in a proper race school, not a trackday with instructors. Disalvo, Bargy, Yamaha Champion school, or Geoff May has an add in the classifieds.

 

I don't recall ever learning to spin the rear. It gradually came around as a product of carrying more consistent corner speed and getting on the gas a bit earlier and earlier until you feel where the rear tire starts getting a little happy. I still never really deliberately spin the rear to complete the corner, I just became more comfortable with the feeling of it loosen up a bit as my trust in the tire's grip came around.

 

i dunno how relatable to bikes, but i will say, with car drifting... i always liked to think of it like, and tried to get people to wrap their heads around the idea of (if i was helping somebody learn), deliberateness in loss of traction, like willingly forcing the car into spinning the rear loose and controlling it, rather than waiting for it to happen and trying to react to it happening and being surprised by the break-traction-point. if you wait and react you're always playing catch up with the inputs compared to where in the process the car already is as far as angle/throttle/speed/apex/countersteer. if you decide "i WILL slide the car here by this much" your input is creating the situation instead of reacting to the situation. "i WILL" clutch kick and sharp turn in here at this point, this many feet before the apex in this gear at this rpm... you know that the car will step out and if you let go of the wheel and just let it whip itself to lock... then it just becomes an effort of controlling the balance between throttle, your speed, your angle, and the amount of counter steer and steering with the gas. after enough times you get used to it and its predictable. then the main difference between mid-level fun haver dude and pro dude is... they can go a bunch faster and put the car 3 inches from the apex 50 times in a row every time all day, where you might spin 1 out of every 10 times and your proximity/angle may vary... but getting the feel for it in itself doesn't take that much. if that makes sense. full disclosure i have not tried to willingly drift a sportbike in any fashion beyond unweighting the rear enough under hard braking/trail braking that it steps out a little upon turn-in, i've never power drifted a bike, so i dunno how that translates, i assume fairly similar though for concept's sake.

 

Cornerspin, American Supercamp, Colin Edwards Boot Camp, or similar

 

I can't agree enough. I used to do this when teaching people to snowboard that grew up skiing. Think about what you are trying to do and be deliberate about it, yet in control of it. Think about the mechanics of what has to happen for a positive or negative outcome. Try in a controlled environment for a positive outcome and if the negative happens, which it will hopefully the damage is limited, whether to man or machine.

 

A day with Geoff May.....

 

Rear spin shouldn't be a goal to learn necessarily. If one progresses incrementaly it will begin to appear. Trying force it as a "must learn" kind of thing will mean skipping the required skill it takes to get you there and you will almost surely end up on your ear. My opinion at least.

 

and an 18 year old with an R6 who is trying to learn to spin the tire will often need to fix his wadded self/bike.

 

Texas Tornado Boot camp. This will accelerate his learning curve more than you can imagine. He will come back smoother, and supremely comfortable with rear wheel spin.

 

you dont mean learn to spin the rear intentionally? just learn to not freak out when it happens? if so, that doesnt need to be "learned" or practiced IMO. if hes gradually increasing his throttle application like he should, any spin should be minor and wont require any extra action. the spin should happen when hes capable of exiting the corner after hes picked the bike up, so it should be no big deal. IMO, those are more important things to learn anyways and should be the focus of any instruction.

also if hes still having trouble opening the throttle, i doubt hes going fast enough to need to handle spinning the rear. if he paid for private instruction right now, would they both addressing this? prob not. IMO, work on the stuff that contribute the most to the laptime first.

 

i think all he needs is a Panigale with TC off.

 

Tell him to go watch some videos of Garry McCoy, and then immediately try to replicate him.

 

has he ridden with the SFLMiniGP guys down there?
http://www.sflminigp.com/

 

I assume this is what you meant OP. Just getting to where it happens and not letting it bite you.

 

I had this mindset for a long time, and just recently started pushing myself to feed in throttle earlier to *get* the bike pointed where I want. It always seemed like I'd be waiting for the bike to finish turning and other guys would somehow be able to already be standing the bike up and taking off at the same point. Also doing more trail braking than in the past, and doing my best to minimize the time between that and feeding throttle back in. All this is sooo much easier to work on with a little bike..... I feel like my riding has improved on the SV after a year on the R3. As for 600's, been there, done that, probably not going back.

 

Of course I don't want him to spin the rear up intentionally. As some of the car guys have said though, I think his mentality is "let me spin the thing up so at least I am controlling it rather than waiting to freak out when it happens."

I am trying to be patient and help the kid out, I'm not being paid, I'm just doing it to help him go faster without hurting himself. He has been pretty patient so far. I just need him to overcome his fear of the throttle (a little fear is a good thing in this case) and get the bike working on the exit. Like I said he's getting slowed and pointed pretty consistently now, so getting on the gas is the next logical step.

Of course a real school would be ideal, and I have recommended this, along with the dirt bike ideas, but I don't have control of the kid's (or the Dad's, in this case) budget! Should have spent that money before buying a new bike.

 

XR100 with the baldest tires you can find soaked in baby oil in a Walmart parking lot. That should do it for minimal investment.