It ain't cheating til you get caught -VW Diesels

So much stupid in this thread I couldn't respond to it all.

The car can pass the emissions test when it detects its' being run. Therefor when left in that mode, the car would meet EPA requirements. It doesn't have to get good gas mileage it doesn't have to deliver good fuel economy. All it needs to do to satisfy the EPA (and other countries regulations) is not exceed limits while running the test and then not be altered after that. When running on road tests there will always be some variation and may not meet the limits. What raised concerns here is that the tailpipe emissions during those on road tests were so far above the limit that there was an assumption that something was amiss. If VW hadn't done anything other than perfectly tune the vehicle to only run clean during those speed/load points then they could have polluted at 1 million times the limit when being used on-road and the EPA couldn't do a thing. FYI With the EPA test they have developed, it would be pretty hard to do that though. It's the same with the city and highway fuel consumption tests. You can hyper-mile or run flat out and your mileage would vary drastically from the listed numbers, but the numbers are meant to be a baseline to give the consumer something to compare.

Yes VW will likely just reflash the offending cars so that they don't over pollute. They will then likely be forced to offer customers some money to offset the difference in how the car was advertised to behave before they bought it to how the cars will behave after the reflash. See Kia/Hyundai (and maybe Ford) with the fuel economy issue a few years ago. Actual varied by so much from advertised that they were forced to admit they lied about fuel economy.

VW had a goal of being the #1 car seller in the world. To do that they had to offer better products. Selling a "clean" diesel car that gets 50mpg and has plenty of power/torque was that "better" product. Now it seems that it's not better after all.

On the bright side they can say they met that goal..... for a quarter. They just surpassed Toyota earlier this year. My guess is it won't last long, but technically the goal was achieved.

Edit: Oh and the EPA will probably force VW to do something to offset the increased emissions. VW will have to buy hybrid/CNG buses for many schools that still use diesel buses (i.e. GM in the 90's) or maybe replant the Brazilian rain forest. This seems so blatant and severe that they may even be forced to sell cars that meet even tighter emissions than other manufacturers do. Maybe pull ahead the 2020 requirements by several years. It will definitely put them at a disadvantage but that's better than not being able to sell any cars.

 

Partially true. No one 100% knows how they perform on other test loops. Emmisions test is one of many.

 

Considering that the 2016 TDIs now have them, I seriously doubt their $2500. Especially since the price of the Jetta/Gold really didn't go up.

I believe the purpose of the solid rear axle on the Jettas was more about saving money. THe base line cost on that car is stupid low.

 

I am not a VW guy unless, we are talking DOKA. But, I do have to question the possible penalties that are being discussed and effects on the many that are currently tied to VW. I hope some consideration is given before fines or punishment is levied.

As is, I see the US market as narrowly focused among specific buyers. This is going to hurt.

 

The price of a DEF tank alone is not $2500. The cost to remove everything that is in the way to get to the DEF tank, disconnecting the DEF tank while making sure that none of the fluid spills on anything, replace the tank, put everything back on that was removed to get to the DEF tank and test a new DEF tank could easily be $2500. This would include some costs to possibly do it all again if the new tank doesn't work right, which sometimes they don't from what I have heard.

The costs to just put a brand new DEF tank in the car during the proper assembly time while it is being built would be much lower. No removing stuff that is in the way, not dealing with a partially full tank and lines, no putting everything back on, etc.

 

Out in Comnifornia, I would like to own a TDI, but would instead buy the plug-in Prius and not hate my life, because I could drive in the car pool lane, which makes the TDI owners hate their life.

I actually drive a CNG Civic and love going in the car pool lane almost as much as the cheap natural gas fill ups.

 

If I was going to buy a toaster it'd be an Audi E tron.

 

DEF tank with module is $300 give or take. Then add heated supply lines, control module, exhaust and injection unit. Cost adds up quick. Plus you need to add the cost of EDD and tooling on top of that.

 

From what I've heard and think I understand, it appears that the ECU has a program in it that senses when the inspection computer is connected and goes into the EPA loop so that it passes. When the inspection computer is disconnected the ECU then goes back into it's normally planned program. Does this sound feasible. If that's the case then a complete reprogramming of the ECU might be necessary to correct the sneaky plan.

Does a "reflash" translate to a complete reprogramming of the ECU?

We semi-educated computer geeks have a desire to know.

 

Usually the supply lines aren't heated there is a heating element in the tank on the German stuff, but I totally agree the cost to add an SCR system to the vehicle especially after the fact would be HUGE. Plus it would take a long time to engineer and test it out, they'll definitely just reprogram the dme(engine computer)to where it has less power and gets less mileage and then settle all the, "I only bought this car because of its gas mileage" lawsuits with cash.

 

Yes reflash and reprogram mean the same thing, they will make a completely new fuel map that is compliant in all ranges and not just some, what they did was monitor certain values (steering angle sensor exterior temp sensor etc) and knowing what the drive cycle test was, (which is public knowledge) notice when the ambient conditions were unchanged and the steering wheel was staying in a fixed position, and the vehicle started to drive in the epa mandated drive cycle for testing, it switched to a different fuel map that made it compliant. The drive cycle for the test would never be achieved during normal operstion while being driven on a public road,so a customer would never notice a drop in performance or mileage. for example and this isn't the drive cycle fyi, they would start and they would hold the vehicle at 25mph for say 30 seconds then accelerate to 60mph and hold for one minute then come to a stop and idle for 2 minutes. So all they did was make it compliant when it saw drive cycle only, sneaky germans

 

heard an interview on the radio today w/the lead researcher from WVU.

first, he very explicitly noted that 'how' the cheat was done was not their focus and he did not know. while it seems obvious that it is a software 'thing', it seemed clear that was speculation.

he also did not go running to the EPA as a whistle blower after 'noticing something funny', rather he engageed the EPA to help with testing and establishing the lab-side baseline (which of course had fab results).

the car then went out on the road and the PostDoc looking at those results was stunned at the disparity from the lab results. this was followed by lots of tests, double checking and digging and....here we are with the OE finally coming clean. <good one, eh?>

the other bit he mentioned was that, in his testing, there was NO change to mileage or performance when in 'test mode' and 'normal mode'.

i found that last bit odd, but who the hell knows....

vince

 

Just a bit on the EPA and CARB emissions testing.

Both programs are a self certification system. The manufacturers submit information about the vehicles powertrain and the emissions performance. The testing is to comply with federal regulations, 40 CFR part 86. In the EPA rules for control of emissions from new and in-use highway vehicles and engines, EPA §86.1806-05, requires onboard diagnostics on vehicles.

the OBD systems are in place to continually monitor each vehicle is operating within the emissions spec. As a general rule the OBD system must indicate when a component is allowing the system to exceed the regulation limit by 1.5 times. The OBD monitoring system does this by issuing a permanent DTC and the check engine light should be illuminated.

From reports, the VW systems are allowing 10 to 40 times the NOx levels at the tail pipe. The VW OBD system should be issuing DTC's when the NOx level is 1.5x above the EPA limit. The VW OBD system is either programmed to violate the EPA and CARB rules and hide the fact that the NOx is beyond 1.5x limit. Or other systems in the VW Engine management is specifically not reporting correct values to the OBD system.

Most likely the VW ECU looks for steering wheel input during startup and as long as it detects no steering input, the VW ECU and OBD system runs the EPA/CARB compliant programming. If the ECU notices steering wheel motion, then the Road program is applied and the systems emissions are out of spec. The OBD system or the related sub systems reporting data is then falsified and emissions related P04xx DTC codes are suppressed.

The EPA rules are to have the vehicle in compliance at all time. Their is no loophole where you pass on the dyno test but the vehicle may emit any emissions levels when driving down the road.

 

for around town we have a Leaf. cheap (about $100 a month after the state tax rebate with a 2 year lease) and like you we can use the HOV lanes. plus the wife has level 2 and level 3 chargers at her office (free) and there's another free level 3 charger less than 2 miles from our house that is now available 24/7. pretty close to a free car! zero maintenance for 2 years, really except we'll probably have to put new tires on it (the car is heavy for the skinny little tires on it).

but I still love my TDI. For road trips, it's hard to beat. Trailering the bikes? no problem. I still haven't seen a hybrid or e-car towing anything. I just drove from ATL to Colorado and back with a full car and two bikes on my trailer. averaged right at 30mpg. 235k miles on the car, probably will sell it and get another one once this all dies down...

 

Come to the GNF!!! You will see my prius towing my race setup I average 29mpg with mine traveling at 80mph, I like it as well because it doubles as my power source, I never have to pay for power, as it's a very efficient generator. I have the larger "wagon" version which is large enough to sleep in as well in a pinch, and it can stay active for days and use very little fuel and keep the interior climate controlled, it is a great vehicle. Plus it has adaptive cruise control which makes it great for highway use since it can basically drive itself.

 

The CR TDIs (EA189) have been an absolute disaster. Forget this emissions scandal.

Exploding HPFPs, clogged/cracked DPFs, turbo failures, the list goes on. They would be doing everyone a favor by taking them back.

They should just put a fork in them ala cash for clunkers and ship them off to 3rd world countries.

When they aren't blowing up they are great cars.

 

I don't think they can just re-flash for EPA mode all the time because of the fragility of the emissions system as it is.

The DPF will clog sooner, taking out the EGR and the turbo, cause more frequent regens which in turn will raise the pollution figures causing an even more conservative tune. Rinse, replace and repeat.

The passat basically proves that they quickly found out that they cannot meet epa requirements without DEF.

 

"So fixing the cars won't be as simple as changing the software to turn on all of the vehicle's emissions-control systems."
"Volkswagen actually tried to fix the problem using a software patch in December 2014 and then again in April 2015."
"Neither attempt was successful."
"And even the installation of a Urea injection system — known commonly as AdBlue — can't guarantee the cars pass emissions. In a letter to VW, the CARB noted that even 2015 model-year cars equipped with AdBlue failed the agency emissions tests in May."

http://www.businessinsider.com/volkswagens-cheating-engines-cant-be-easily-fixed-2015-9

 

I think they will do a mild re flash and pay a huge fine.

 

i saw this as well, i can guarantee you that the reflash programs they tried were ones that didnt change the performance, the one that will work will piss people off cuz itll drop the mpg and power ALOT