I disagree. The 50 or 60mph you might be able to scrub off with the rear brake after a front brake failure might be the difference between killing the guy in front of you vs a good ass packing, or impacting a wall at lethal speed. If it's a useless safety feature, try removing your entire rear brake system and then go through Tech.
sorry man I should have explained more. The break will still work up to full leaver travell distance but not well enough at full travell distance to actually fully lock up the rear wheel, it is still actually working just simply not locking up. Over time with this rider/s you re bleed an introduce more action with less use of travell as they become comfortable with using it and gain knoledge about what the rear brake can really do for you on a road / race bike
Its a feeling thing mate if you are not rather mechanically inclined. If you understand the theory of whats happening when bleeding brakes Hydraulic actions etc you will figure it out it is simple basic maintanence tools and skills required to do. I do it by history feel now but you can run your bike up on the paddock stand to base test it out on easily and safely.
Flush the line, as you bleed the brake you feel the pedal get stiff. As soon as you feel pressure close the bleeder. Take a test spin and drag the rear, if it feels too soft bleed some more. It doesn't take much and if you normally bleed your brakes every round or so you'll know the feel I'm talking about. You can get it to the point of smashing the lever and not locking it up
Derick, if it helps you at all, I use the EFF out of my rear brake. I trail brake with it. Mostly in left handers for some damn reason. I figure, the em effer who designed and made the bike had a reason for the rear brake. So, I use it. Street, trackday, roadrace, MX, jumping bonfires with my stupid buddies, hillclimbs, mudbogs, ...I use it. But of course, I never was, and never will be, the greatest or fastest in any of those categories. So you can take my advice for what it is.
All this talk about detuning the rear brake is rubbish. The rear brake is a very effective tool and you need to have it available and fully operating for a variety of reasons. The use of the rear brake can be learned by simply using it. Why in the world would you detune the front? Answer: never. So what's the point of taking away the effectiveness of the rear brake? Simply learn to feel it when you use it. I race both vintage bikes and modern bikes. The weight bias on a vintage bike is 50/50; the bias on a modern bike is 60/40. The vintage rear brake is much more effective and I use it constantly when hard braking is needed. There is little or no hopping or skipping when using the rear brake on vintage bikes and it really allows vintage bikes to brake later. My modern bike doesn't like the rear brake much because of the massive transfer of weight to the front EXCEPT in the rain. In the rain I use the shit out of the rear and lighten up on the front. I find that using the front lightly and applying more rear gives me a lot of confidence and greatly increases my braking distance AND greatly reduces the possibility of washing out the front tire in the rain. Of course front wheel trail braking is very difficult in the rain so I rely more on the rear then too. You want a good rear brake when going cross country. You're much less likely to drop it on the grass if you slow down with the rear. And if there's any dew/wetness on the grass, you can count on the front washing out if you even tap the front. Long and short. Forget all this detuning of the rear - maybe detune it so it's not 'grabby' - but simply learn to feel what you're doing with your brake foot. Racing is all about feel anyway, isn't it? I like racing in the rain - except when I crash - which is a lot in the rain. Last year I raced my 350 GP bike in 500 GP at WERA's Mid-Ohio Saturday race in the rain. I finished about 1:30 minutes ahead of 2nd. Of course that's discounting crashing in the morning practice in the rain. The year before at Mid-Ohio, I was racing my 450 SuperSingle on slicks and thought I could win 1st overall when the rain began as I started going through a bunch of bikes - only to end up wiping out at the bottom of the keyhole. I was just too enthusiastic and should have known better. At last years AHRMA event at Tally I raced the 450 with slicks in the rain and did a horizon job on everyone but a Ducati 1198 that had slicks. I could still see him out there but when I crossed the finish line I looked back after turn 1 and no one was crossing the finish line yet. Gotta love the rain - and your rear brake.
I know of a really fast "kid" we all know and watched grow up, that now runs at the pointy end of the DSB field, that would disagree with you. As this air in the line is his preferred method of detuning the rear brake. But then again, I could be wrong. Maybe you should call GG and give him some riding pointers and explain to him how important "feel" is. :up:
I agree with all of this, right now I have 0 feel for the rear, its basically an on/off switch right now. If detuning it allows me to learn and feel, than thats a pretty solid answer.
Mr. Broome, it appears you're forgetting that I covered GG by stating that detuning to get rid of the grabbiness is acceptable. However you do this-a little air in the line or chamfering the leading edge of the pad or reducing disc surface is acceptable in moderation. I just hate to see riders who have so little rear brake that they can stomp on the lever with little effect. I'm sure GG is way past anything you or I can point out as he sounds like someone who doesn't thrash his way around but works/feels his way toward the front.
Here's a little idea: play around with a slightly longer rear brake lever. You can pick up more feel as your leverage increases. You'll find it easier to work the brake. Not much - 1/4" - 3/8"
Oh goodie a brake thread.. It seems to me that modern bikes have a LOT of brakes, both front and rear, which may be fine for street squids.. But you do indeed need a rear brake.. and I do not like the idea of adding air.. I would reduce the pad, myself.. But then I have bikes with drum brakes, they don't stop anyway.. Yes you NEED that rear brake when you take the grassy route to the paddock... ooops... Ron
Was it Schwantz or Russell that said "I tried to use the rear brake twice in my career, both times it put me on my head"? Moral of the story is, if you want to try to use it...go ahead. But you don't need the rear brake to go fast. If Championships were won on the World stage without utilizing the rear brake, I have to assume it isn't a necessity at the club level.
Dear Squirrel Shepard, And this is fact that contemporary world stage riders (WSB, MotoGP) don't use their rear brakes at all? Ever? I almost want to start reviewing slow-mo video to validate this. I hope you're wrong or you'll turn my world upside down. I do remember factory Ducati riders prior to traction control using the rear brake to keep the front wheel down while keeping the throttle pinned when on the straights. Of course even though Russell and can still lap us, they are almost vintage caliber
this response and the post its refering to are the end game of this conversation. there is no designated right method for it, as the solution is completely subjective. some people will get the most out of one method while oyhers get the most out of a completely different method. i never used the rear brake until i started to ride motocross and supermoto. now i use it all the time and am still learning to feel it out (its tougher through mx boots as they are so much stiffer and relay less feel. i would generally say "i know when im on the rear brake because the engine has died from looking it up" but thats fairly dangerous on asphalt so i practiced backing off a bit and not just smashing it down all the time. whatever method you choose to pursue your experience will vary from others because its about your feel. not some pro racers or some factory mechanic, but your own. and you wont gain anything without going out and practicing and experimenting trying to find something that works for you
Nope, nowhere in any of my posts did i say "MotoGP riders never use the rear brake". A lot of them use it. The only reason i pointed that out that Schwantz or Russell (cant remember which one) never used it was to make the point that you don't have to use the rear brake to win, especially at the club level. There are lots of other things that can (and probably should) be worked on before trying to master the rear brake.
I'm with you on this: you don't have to use the rear brake to win, especially at a club level. And there are lots of other techniques to work on besides the rear brake. But the rear brake is the topic of this thread, isn't it? So let's try this: The rear brake is an acquired taste...like anchovies or oysters on the half shell. You can get by without them but when you learn to include them into your food repertoire than it adds to the whole experience. Same way with the rear brake - not necessarily mandatory but if you acquire the taste for it, you can add a whole other level to your repertoire of riding skills. But less about the analogies and more about the rear brake dialogue and thread subject. It is a common methodology for many riders (pro and amateur) to use the rear brake just prior to the front brake at the end of the straight. This settles the front end so that you don't get that big dive when hitting the front brakes so that your front end remains calm (sorta like the slipper clutch effect). I never got the hang of this braking move except in the rain where it seems that it helps because you really want things to be super smooth. Plus, in the rain where seems to be more time to plan. But in the dry I found it too distracting to get the timing just right when approaching my brake marker while trying to use both brakes in a proper sync.
