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Fresh built 09 ZX6, wont start, timing problem?

Discussion in 'Tech' started by QMXcycle, Apr 7, 2011.

  1. QMXcycle

    QMXcycle Well-Known Member

    Hey all, just finished rebuilding an 09 engine, did a mild supersport job on it. Re-installed everything but the bike wont start up, I have good spark and a good fuel supply through the injectors but still no go. The bike backfires once in awhile and makes a slight catch here and there but thats it. I've heard its possible to put the cams in 180 degrees off the ignition timing and have an engine act like this. I've also heard Kawi engines are very hard to get started at first after re-assembly and some people use starter fluid/quickstart. I havnt tried the starter fluid as I'm a bit reluctant.

    Any thoughts, advice, knowledge on this would ne MUCH appreciated!!
     
  2. gapman789

    gapman789 Well-Known Member

    I just did this to an 07 GSXR 1000 (set cams out of time), and I've got (8) bent intake valves to show for it.

    Let's hope that's not the case with you.
     
  3. QMXcycle

    QMXcycle Well-Known Member

    I dont think its that extreme in my case, or at least I hope not lol. The valves are in good time with the pistons, there were never any impact with anything of any kind, resitance while turning over, ect. From what I gather is the cams are out of time with the ignition sequence, so the ignition is firing on the intake stroke not the ignition stroke. At least thats what I think........
     
  4. gapman789

    gapman789 Well-Known Member

    Mine started, ran for about 30 secs, but the damage was done.
    I 're-timed/set' the cams and the motor sounded great except for the knocking on the top end.
    I had the cams out of time by only (1-2) teeth. Most likely (2). but no more than that.
     
  5. Gorecki

    Gorecki verwirrt und orientierung

    Got this figured out yet?

    Just in case because 90% of the time it IS the problem. Have you made double sure you wired the spark plugs to the correct firing order?
     
  6. QMXcycle

    QMXcycle Well-Known Member


    90% of the time the spark plug wiring order is the problem? or 90% of the time the cam timing being out is the problem? To be entirely honest I didnt confirm the spark plug wires, I'll take a look see
     
  7. Gorecki

    Gorecki verwirrt und orientierung

    Yes!

    Really easy to overlook or cross over and not realize it. Would be the first thing I would check. You got spark, you got fuel. Even if the timing is off, it should still attempt to run...well unless it's WAY off.

    Hopefully it's that simple. :D
     
  8. QMXcycle

    QMXcycle Well-Known Member

    Everything is in sequence. From what I read you can install the cams in such a way that the cam/piston is in time but the ignition is out by 180 degrees, whereas its supposed to be cams/pistons/ignition all in time togethor. I think the ignition is firing on the intake stroke not the igntion stroke, engine is coming out again......
     
  9. Gorecki

    Gorecki verwirrt und orientierung

    Bummer, certainly was worth a shot but you can be totally on the money! :up:
     
  10. QMXcycle

    QMXcycle Well-Known Member

    It most certainly was worth a shot because I hadnt thought of that and if that was the problem and I re-timed the engine I would have been pi$$ed lol. Engine is out now, not bad for lunch hour, I'll get to it again after work
     
  11. Gorecki

    Gorecki verwirrt und orientierung

    Good luck and voodoo juju to you my friend. :D
     
  12. RM Racing

    RM Racing Tool user

    If #1 and #4 cylinders are at TDC, you can put the cams in either with marks pointing away (level with head surface) or pointing toward each other in the center. It will work either way. Turning both cams 180 degrees will result in the same thing.

    Something else is up. One cam may be 180 out. When at TDC, the lobes on either #1 or #4 will be at (approximately) 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock.
     
  13. QMXcycle

    QMXcycle Well-Known Member

    Thats where I had them set roughly and then adjusted from there when I degreed them, could be that I degreed them totally wrong, I hear then engine will still turn properly with no impacting parts if the cams are as much as 10 degrees out of time. I'm gonna try to time them again tomorow.
     
  14. RM Racing

    RM Racing Tool user

    10 degrees out from stock or kit spec will not cause it to backfire and it will start.
     
  15. QMXcycle

    QMXcycle Well-Known Member

    I guess the question is what WILL cause it to backfire and not start? scratchin my head here lol
     
  16. QMXcycle

    QMXcycle Well-Known Member

    Ok, turns out I must have had my head up my a$$ when I degreed these cams, popped off the cam cover and they appear to be WAY off, with 1 and 4 at TDC the lobs point straight out at 9 and 3, definately a long way from the 10 and 2. I also compared to a picture I took with them stock before I took the engine apart and its easy to see they are way out. Stock lobe centres are 105 intake and 110 exhaust, I was looking for 107.5 intake and 110 exhaust as per the kit spec, so I'm obviously nowhere close to that, guess its time to give it another shot.
     
  17. ed who?

    ed who? the opposite of eharmony.

    Be careful on 09+ even @105lc intake if u have say a. 45 HG and milled head the ptv is very close so if u got it off it could be bad but that's not causing back fire. Double check all your electrical connections. No error codes? CPS and CnkPS all hooked up?
    Kit or stock ecu?
     
  18. QMXcycle

    QMXcycle Well-Known Member

    the dash is flashing the fi light because I got rid of the exhaust servo, other than that its not showing anything. Is there a way to put it into diagnostic mode? All the connections seem to be fine, the engine turns over, theres spark and there's fuel, it dosnt backfire until I try to start it over and over again then when enough fuel builds up it ignites randomly because theres an excess of it, or so thats what I assume is happening. The ECU is stock. I did do an ignition delete mod, wiring the ignition to the kill switch and wiring in a resistor. Everything seems to power up properly. I removed the ignition completely. The head has about 20 thou taken off it, stock head gasket.
    Whats a CPS and CnkPS? lol
     
  19. RM Racing

    RM Racing Tool user

    Cam position sensor, crank position sensor. If you had KDS, you could see fault history. The manual gives instructions for determining codes.
     
  20. QMXcycle

    QMXcycle Well-Known Member

    Yeah all the sensors are hooked up properly, double and triple checked that, but I'll check again, and a fifth time if necessary........
     

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