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Ducati Pulling out of WSBK

Discussion in 'General' started by jelder, Aug 27, 2010.

  1. RichDesmond

    RichDesmond Well-Known Member

    Well, displacement may be displacement, but displacement is NOT power. Displacement times revs is power. If you chase the math around a little you'll see that what really matter is total bore area. A formula based on that would be equitable and avoid any artificial performance indexing schemes.
     
  2. Hawk518

    Hawk518 Resident Alien

    I don't understand why Honda quit on the RC. To me money, is not an excuse for Honda.
     
  3. Dave K

    Dave K DaveK über alles!

    Maybe because they wanted to discontinue the RC51 and didn't see the point in marketing something they aren't producing?
     
  4. Vitamin-E

    Vitamin-E cornerin lo in the 3-1-fo

    No. (Torque x RPM)/5252 is power. Displacement itself does not directly come into any formula for torque, work, or power.

    Total bore area is not a I.C.E. "universal constant" that will equalize power output across different configurations. [One of] The reason why a twin cannot compete with an 4 cylinder cc-for-cc is flame speed. When a motor has a ginormous bore diameter (Duc's are prolly somewhere around 4.000") mixture homogeneity/distribution across the whole bore area is MUCH tougher to control. This creates problems with flame speed and in controlling ignition.

    And that is only the tip of the proverbial iceberg. Then, our heroic twin designer has to deal with the MASSIVE weight of the crank linkgage dictated by the ginormous bore.

    Ducatisti, no need to get angry. Please see below vv
    [​IMG]

    (pssst. take note of the engine concept here and make an affordable one....Aprilia did :D )
     
  5. RichDesmond

    RichDesmond Well-Known Member

    I really don't think the flame speed/mixture homogeneity/distribution issue is all that significant. Is the BMEP of a Duc that different from one of the fours?? And there are compensating advantages for a twin, like it's narrowness, which leads to better airflow through the radiator, which leads to smaller radiators, which leads to less drag.

    No formula trying to equalize different engine configurations is going to be perfect, but I think total bore area is closer than any other simple method, and would work very well in the real world
     
  6. Vitamin-E

    Vitamin-E cornerin lo in the 3-1-fo

    What's BMEP got to do with real world power output?? BMEP is a hodge-podged theoretical measure for engineers to compare one engine to another on the back of a napkin.

    To the point of mixture issues/flame front, I can assure you that it is a big problem for big bore motors. But like I said before, its hardly the only thing hamstringing big twin relative to comparable displacement 4's. The over-arching problem a big twin deals with is mass (including fluid mass...2 big bores vs 4 little ones...anyone, anyone??).

    FACT: cc-for-cc (not to mention $-for-$), twins cannot compete with 4's on a level playing field. If they could, WSBK would not be constantly trying to find parity between the two designs...

    Listen, before you Ducatisti start sticking pins in Voodoo dolls...let me say this.....I like Ducatis. I like the sound and soul of the 90 deg twin and dry clutch and all that. But, the fact is, if Ducati wants to compete for championships in WSBK and does NOT want to go broke doing it, they will have to build a 4 cylinder motor. This is the SAME conclusion they came to in MotoGP for the SAME reasons. They can't make ENOUGH power with a twin to compete with the 4's. Based on the fact that they could NOT force the Japanese (or Aprilia) to build twins, they built a 4 and did pretty well with it....and the more I read their press release, the more I think that is exactly what they are going to do. Don't worry, I heard a VFR800 on the road today with virtually open pipes and it sounded GREAT. Add a dry clutch and "4" will be the new "2" :D:D
     
  7. pickled egg

    pickled egg Tell me more

    So how about a V-4 big-bang motor? :wow:

    I'm thinking one of those would sound wicked!
     
  8. Vitamin-E

    Vitamin-E cornerin lo in the 3-1-fo

    I concur. They are Bad Ass!!! :up:
     
  9. Lee#144

    Lee#144 Track Newbie

    Bwahhhaaaaaaa!! I must have missed bayliss destroying everyone before retiring on a bike that can't compete with super bike inline 4s?? Or even last year when nori was very close to repeating that? I'm not sure the problem is the bike not being competitive as i think the problem is the company not wanting to put the money there anymore. Don't forget this is a bike doing well in Checas hands. The factory team is pulling out...they just picked up the greatest racer of all time and would like to support their investment with superb development or at least that's the bottom line as I read it.

     
  10. SethG

    SethG Well-Known Member

    Flame front is everything on twins, there's a reason Ducati never built a V-twin motoGP bike.

    I'll still say they have the perfect platform, it's a V4. Aprilia obviously looked at what they did with the desmosedici project and decided to go in the same direction, results are self-evident at this point.

    Ducati should mass produce the V4 and race it in WSBK.
     
  11. It is already there. The Desmo "only" has 170HP (most tests put it between 168-172).

    Most people see one and think it is some 220HP beast; it isn't. I have seen several of them at track days and people will make comments like "I passed the Desmo on the straight!!!" as if it is some big feat but it really isn't. Hell, I passed one on the straight 3 times in 1 day back in January. When you figure HP numbers, you can take any Jap bike and put on an exhaust, filter, dyno tune etc and be similar in HP.

    The difference is the lighter wheels, lighter engine internals etc that let it rev/spin-up quicker...and of course, the crazy torque. Not to mention the bike itself is pretty damn light. So it does pull hard. I think it does something like 9's @ 150+ in the quarter. But it isn't a MotoGP bike like most people think it is.
     
  12. RichDesmond

    RichDesmond Well-Known Member

    Um, no. BMEP is really a measure of specific torque, i.e. how much torque per unit displacement an engine produces. It's a function of cylinder filling and combustion efficiency. If twins had such huge flame speed issues they would make less specific torque (lower BMEP) than fours. But they don't. You claim it's a big problem, but I don't see any evidence of it.
    So you're saying a twin of equivilent size will weigh more than a four?? On what planet??
    Well duh, that's my whole point.

    Not quite sure who these "Ducatisti" are that you're worried about. I have an 848, but I'm hardly a blind cheerleader for the brand.
    I do agree that a V-4 makes a lot of sense under the current rules.
     
  13. Mongo

    Mongo Administrator

    Rich - the Ducatisti are out there and they scare me :D
     
  14. metricdevilmoto

    metricdevilmoto Just forking around

    Chase the math around and you'll find that it's an inefficient platform for making power when compared to an inline 4. Which is why Ducati is always asking for more displacement, less weight and allowances to run aftermarket pistons to keep the weight of the moving parts down.

    I don't have to be an expert mathematician to know that 1200 is more than 1000.

    That said, I like Ducati. I just don't like the Ducatisti and how they turn a blind eye to the facts.
     
  15. tzrider

    tzrider CZrider

    Wot?

    That's like saying the number of floors you fall from has no direct bearing on your injuries...

    V-twins differs in the design compromises that L4s offers. Since the advent of better engine electronics, the V's advantage in power delivery has been considerably diminished...
     
  16. mdr14

    mdr14 What?

    restrictor plates
     
  17. tommyd273

    tommyd273 Well-Known Member

    Once MotoGP goes back to the liter, what are the odds that they'll be able to use that technology and get back in to WBK?
     
  18. V5 Racer

    V5 Racer Yo!

    The 250cc bump went away for the twins.

    :stupid:

    :D
     
  19. HPPT

    HPPT !!!

    They were selling them several years after they quit racing them.
     
  20. panthercity

    panthercity Thread Killa

    what else would you do with excess inventory...
     

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