synth vs. blend vs. petrol

I agree Rich...totally.

If you guys are interested here is a link to a very good site, with good information...

http://faq.f650.com/FAQs/OILFAQ.htm

I pulled this excerpt from the above link. While the author is anonymous he is on the mark.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Synthetic vs. Mineral Oil:

Back in 1998, Mobil filed suit against Castrol for falsely advertising Syntec oil as synthetic, when in fact it contained a highly hydroprocessed mineral (Dino) oil instead of a chemically synthesized basestock. Due to the amount that the mineral oil had been chemically changed, the judge decided that Mobil lost that suit. As a result (except in Germany), any oil containing this highly hydroprocessed mineral (Dino) oil (currently called Group III basestock by the American Petroleum Institute) can market themselves as a synthetic oil. Since the original synthetic basestock (polyalphaolefin or PAO) costs approximately 3 times as much as the Group III basestock, most of the oil blenders switched to the Group III basestock, which significantly increased their profit margins (the price of synthetic oils didn't drop, as I recall, to accommodate this cheaper basestock, which makes up >70% of a bottle of oil). In Europe, blenders still need to use some PAO in order to meet the toughest ACEA specs. In the US, Mobil 1, Amsoil, Red Line and Royal Purple are the only ones I am SURE OF still using PAO. If you can get a material safety data sheet (MSDS) for the oil you are interested in, look for PAO or polymer or oligomer of 1-decene as a component for a tipoff. Synthetic blends contain some amount (not defined, as far as I know) of synthetic basestock. The small amount of viscosity modifier present in most multi-grade oils probably fulfils this requirement, making synthetic blends another profit centre for the oil blenders.

Blending Oils:

PAO-based and mineral oil-based oils are compatible. There are a few synthetics that are not (these are ester-based oils, not suitable for or sold for everyday driving). Again, check the MSDS. However, there are at least 4 different companies that provide the additive packages that are blended into oils. Mixing these 4 different additive technologies can be bad (at least long-term). I am assuming that if you stay with the same brand/company's oil (Synth vs. Dino) there shouldn't be too much problem, but mixing oils is not a good practice.

Synthetic basestocks:

There are 4 major PAO producers: BP Chemical (merchant supplier), Chevron-Phillips Chemical (merchant supplier), Neste (European merchant supplier), Exxon-Mobil (mostly internal use by Mobil). Of course, most of the big oil companies (and a few others) produce the highly hydroprocessed mineral (Dino) oil synthetic.


PAO Advantages:
Extremely good low temperature viscosity (in case you want to start your bike at -40C or -40F).
Clean engine internals (downside: can also clean up crud from damaged seals in older engines, possibly allowing damaged seals to leak).
Low volatility (have to top up oil less).
More stable at extremely hot temperatures.
------------------------------------------------------------------

Now you know a little bit. And no, I won't use Mobile One "automotive oil" in my bike...no way...never. Reasons...gear mesh, extremely high RPM, and wet clutch.

 

Whatever is run in an engine with a wet clutch & a shared tranny should have an MA rating. With a synth blend you get the best of both worlds. I like Motul.

 

As an engine builder, I have noticed there is a direct correlation between regular oil changes and condition of a motor. The more often the oil was changed, the better condition the motor was in.

If the oil wasn't changed often enough, you could tell by the wear on the parts.
You can really see the effect of this on the oil cooled GSX-R motors.

On the water cooled race motors, when I know oil is changed regularly, I have seen wear on the cross hatch in the cylinders with Golden Spectro and Amsoil, although the rest of the motor seems fine.

I really don't see any cylinder cross hatch wear in lubricants such as Royal Purple after a season of racing.

 

Hmmm, don't recall anyone saying what they used was the best, except me! (from my post:"I have used all three, dino, synth and blend. I've blown up bikes with dino and synth. Therefore, blend must be better! ")

Other than that, no one claimed scientific or that what they used was the best (or did I just miss it?). Mostly just "Hey, this is what worked for me..."

I'm not being defensive since I don't have anything to defend, but if you decide who to vote for the same way you came up with that, well, fill in the rest....

 

Not anything against you or your post, but did you read that quote I put up about synthetic blend lubricants? Just the additions of some viscosity improvers are enought to call oil a "synthetic blend". I'm not impressed and somewhat shocked. Gemany at least makes manufacturers live up to the claims.

This kinda reminds me of my Mom telling me that a Human Hair wig only needs one "Human Hair".

 

Yeah, I read it and knew it already... Part of the problem with BBS's and chats is that it's hard to determine exactly "how" people mean things... The was meant to indicate that I was joking. I broke a motor with the "cheapest" oil and the most expensive, but not the mix of the two... Just always struck me and my buddies as kinda funny... As was mentioned once before, it would be nice to have a "tongue-in-cheek" smiley, but one can only image what else that would look like!

 

etemplet thanks for that info <seriously>

...now I know why I feel guilty for using Castrol not Mobil1 these last couple of oil changes...

 

for the tech geeks here!!
RED LINE SYNTHETIC MOTOR OILS are designed to provide the highest degree of protection and cleanliness for your engine. We use the most stable synthetic components available. Red Line lubricants contain polyol ester basestocks, the only lubricants which can withstand the tremendous heat of modern jet engines, which makes our motor oil a necessity to properly lubricate a turbocharger or hot- running engine. The synthetic basestocks have a natural multigrade property, which means that large amounts of unstable polymeric thickeners are not required to manufacture our multigrades. Red Line Synthetic Motor oils will provide better protection than a petroleum oil of the next higher viscosity grade at low rpms and two protects better than two higher viscosity grades at high shear conditions. Most importantly, Red Line Motor Oils can significantly reduce engine wear, which means a longer useful life for your engine.
Formulated for turbo protection
Highest film-strength available
Provides upper cylinder wear protection
Increases high-temperature oil pressure
Protects bearings at high speeds and temperatures
Reduces cam and lifter wear
Prevents foaming even at high speeds
Increases fuel economy
Reduces engine temperatures
Increases engine durability
Flows well in very cold climates
Compatible with petroleum and most synthetic oils

IMPROVED HIGH RPM PROTECTION
The viscosity seen in a bearing or cam may be completely different than the labeled viscosity. Petroleum oils lose considerable viscosity at high RPMs and high temperatures. In contrast, Red Line synthetics are much more resistant to viscosity loss than even the best petroleums. A petroleum 20W50 begins as a 20W oil and the oil is thickened with a polymeric plastic substance which will thicken the oil at higher temperatures. Unfortunately, when the oil enters a high shear stress area such as a bearing, these large polymer molecules align themselves in order to create the path of least resistance. As shown in Figure 1, the apparent viscosity can be much less than the viscosity listed on the container - typical 20W50s will actually be similar to an SAE 30 or 40 in the bearing. The same behavior occurs with all multigrades, with a petroleum 5W30 shearing down to a 10W or 20W and a synthetic 5W50 shearing similarly to a petroleum 20W50. No wonder 5W30s are not recommended for sustained high-speed driving.

Figure 1: Red Line 10W40 provides greater bearing protection than petroleum 20W50s. Note how even high-quality petroleums will lose a significant portion of their viscosity protection when exposed to the high shear forces in bearings and on cylinder walls.

Figure 2: Red Line provides significantly greater viscosity than petroleums under high-speed and high temperature conditions. Red Line provides a greater viscosity than the next higher petroleum grade.


These polymeric thickeners are very large molecules which will suffer from thermal cracking when exposed to high temperatures. When these molecules crack, they reform to create varnish deposits which can stick rings and plug turbo passages. For this reason most turbocharged cars recommend against using wide-range multigrades. Since Red Line Synthetic Oils satisfy the high-temperature and low-temperature flow requirements of a multigrade without the use of unstable thickeners, all viscosity grades are suitable for high temperature and turbo use.

Figure 3: Red Line synthetics are able to withstand much higher temperatures than conventional lubricants. This chart shows how much more readily petroleum oils boil away compared to Red Line products.


BETTER HIGH TEMPERATURE LUBRICATION
Petroleum oils boil away rapidly or decompose under high temperature conditions. The low volatility of Red Line not only reduces oil consumption, but it can have a significant effect on upper cylinder lubrication, especially in the upper ring area which will see temperatures in the range of 600°F, temperatures where only polyol ester basestocks will provide excellent lubrication. Cam and follower contacts can also reach temperatures of 500°F. Modern engines are designed to run much hotter than their predecessors, producing more power out of smaller engines. The engine compartments contain much more insulation to deaden noise. The air flow through the engine compartment has been reduced in order to reduce air drag and improve fuel economy. Petroleum oils may have adequately lubricated automotive engines of the past, but new engine designs are creating much more stress on the oil. Figure 3 compares the high-temperature evaporation of Red Line products to widely marketed petroleum products. Figure 4 compares the thermal stability of petroleum and other synthetics with Red Line.This test was performed at 500°F and is representative of temperatures seen in the ring area and upper cylinder. Only Red Line is capable of producing completely clean surfaces at those temperatures. It is interesting to note that other synthetics produced considerably more deposit than the petroleum. Petroleum evaporates more readily than the synthetics, so more of the synthetic remains to thermally decompose into a hard deposit. The thermal stability of the synthetic hydrocarbon used in other synthetics is only slightly greater than a petroleum hydrocarbon molecule; however, the polyol esters in Red Line are capable of at least an additional 100°F before breakdown.

Figure 4

BETTER OXIDATION STABILITY
Conventional petroleums break down when exposed to oxygen at the high temperatures. Even though the temperature in the sump may not be excessive, the oil which coats the cylinder walls sees oxygen under high temperatures and pressures, an environment which promotes oxygen attack. The reaction products are initially organic acids, which are corrosive to metals. These acids will combine to form varnish deposits which will coat metal, reducing the ability to transfer heat, and will build up in the ring area causing ring sticking. Excessive oxidation results in oil thickening. A significant advantage of a synthetic such as Red Line is the much better resistance to oxidation. Red Line begins with basestocks which have been designed for excellent stability. In a typical oxidation test, Red Line Synthetic oils have a viscosity increase of 15% compared 150% for good petroleum products and a maximum allowable increase of 375% in the SF and SG specifications.

EXCELLENT ENGINE CLEANLINESS
In addition to reduced varnish deposits, Red Line Synthetic lubricants can significantly reduce sludge deposits. The high temperature stability insures that there is no contribution to sludge from oxidized oil, but the unburned fuel components still can contribute to sludge and varnish formation. Well-tuned engines which regularly attain the operating temperature regulated by the cooling system have no problems with partially-burned fuel, but engines driven only a few miles at a time can build up sludge rapidly. Red Line uses large amounts of dispersant chemistry which encircle the combustion particles and prevent them from coagulating with others and settle out in the lubrication system.

REDUCES WEAR
Not all synthetics are created equal! Red Line Synthetic oils can provide much reduced wear rates compared to petroleum oils or other synthetic oils. If metal-to-metal contact does occur, the amount of friction created can make a great difference whether the bearing will spin or the cam and follower will create tremendous heat and wear. The chart below indicates that Red Line lubricants provide significantly lower friction. Compared are several "high-performance" synthetic and petroleum lubricants. This reduced friction means less heat is generated, so temperatures are reduced, wear is reduced, and more power is transferred to the wheels.


Red Line lubricants also excel in wear protection. Red Line provides several different antiwear additives in each lubricant to provide wear protection over a very wide range of conditions. The data from two ASTM Steel-on-Steel wear tests below indicate that Red Line has a distinct ability to carry a greater load (film-strength), and that less wear is produced per unit of load. The Moderate Load chart indicates the ability of Red Line to significantly reduce wear under normal loads which are encountered. The Heavy Loads chart indicates that Red Line provides less wear under severely loaded conditions encountered in high-performance applications. Red Line can provide less wear and a much lower chance of catastrophic failure than other petroleums and synthetics. This can make the difference between an engine saved or one destroyed when lubricated under extreme conditions. Note how even after 15,000 miles Red Line outperforms even new petroleums and synthetics, and the friction and wear characteristics of some other synthetics is severely deficient after 5,000 miles use. All Red Line Motor Oils will provide similar low friction and wear. Red Line contains unique oxidation inhibitors which are converted to antiwear additives as they absorb oxidizers, constantly replenishing the antiwear chemistry. The reduced friction, lower wear, and increased thermal stability all indicate a product which is superior to other commercially available petroleum and synthetic lubricants. This translate more power to the wheels.





FOAM PREVENTION
Since there is no designated test procedure in the API SH, SG, SF, CC, or CD service classifications to measure an oil's resistance to foam, it is not surprising that many oils sold today are not suitable to be run at higher speeds. Lubricating with tiny air bubbles is a very difficult task. Many engine noises and engine failures can be attributed to excessive foaming. Red Line Synthetic oils have been formulated to resist foam in even the most severe racing engines.

 

from the site here: for the charts and graphs
http://www.redlineoil.com/redlineoil/engoilti.htm

 

Geek?? At least I didn't copy an advertisement.

Hey WERA 176, I got your sacasim on the first try. I was just being extra cautious since a few people get their feelings hurt rather easily around here.

 

What is sacasim?

Actually, I'm a sacasist MF, but much of that gets lost in this format...

(Gotta watch we don't get too much BS on the Tech section!)

 

Thanks for all the input, everybody.

And thanks for the answer, Frank Angel.