updates from one of the Redbull Rookie cup

From what I've heard from other riders the Kevin Schwantz school is kinda basic and not worth the money. If they didn't switch tires between sessions that makes a huge difference. Is there any confirmation that different sessions used the same tires? Kris Turner did a 2:00. Considering he has never ridden that track and only may have seen it on a video game and possibly on old tires, doesn't say he's getting his ass kicked.

 

*threadjack participant*
If I remember correctly a dude did that out at Willow about a year ago in the 125gp class and we protested the crap out of him... lol... On the start he just dissapeared from the rest of us... but I don't think his actual lap times were so impressive compared to the 125s.

 

We did the metrakit finals in Spain in 2004,great experience but a bad deal for the US kids due to the bikes we were provided. We are thankfull to Evelyn, Sean and the WERA organization for allowing Miles to compete.At 12 years old he is not allowed to attend any schools. We have talked with K Schwantz but still no word from suzuki corp. It is very difficult to get help at this age. I don't think number of riders in 125 class is a big deal,there are some fast guys in F2 and Miles has learned alot this year.This is a scary but exciting sport to us parents, and I am slowly getting more at ease with it,less cigs during his races. This is what he loves to do and wants to do.I have had to learn how keep his bike ready and we know and tell Miles to have fun,do his best,and if he's good enough in the coming years he might get some outside help.All he can do at this point is develop his skills and have fun.see ya at the races.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymous Bidder
Question:

If someone took a TZ rolling chassis and stuck in a Yamaha YZ250F motor,D would it run in the 125 class or the 250 class?

I've thought for awhile (likely along with many others) that it would be a lot of fun to race a small four stroke in a TZ or RS frame. Don't have to worry about jetting, etc. Likely to be much better than the 'meatgrinder' classes.

 

And if the manufacturers offered that bike for under $10,000, race-ready, not street legal, only for licensed racers, would you buy one and race it?

 

God knows I love my two stroke RS125, but I'd sure consider a 4 stroke alternative. Maybe not first year, I can usually only afford used. But it better be light and handle as well as my 125!

Merle

 

Uh, you do know the relative production costs of a 125cc two-stroke vs. a 250cc four-stroke, right? And you know that 125s will be in the World Championship series until something like 2012, right? And that manufacturers are still making and selling them, right? (Aprilia, Gilera, KTM, Honda). And that USGPRU races I have been to have drawn 40 125s? And that Josh Herrin and Garrett Carter came out of USGPRU 125s, right? (WERA 125cc GP grads include Nicky, Tommy and Roger Hayden; Jason DiSalvo; Ben Spies; CMRRA and WSMC 125cc GP grads include John Hopkins.)

And that no OE currently imports any 125cc GP bikes into the U.S. because the gray market guys can walk into a retail shop in Tokyo, buy one at full pop, ship it to the U.S. and STILL sell it for less than OE dealers could, right? So in short, they have the bikes, they're making the bikes, they could send a couple dozen or hundred or thousands to the U.S. by just keeping the production line running a little longer with no additional design and tooling costs, and sell them for $10,500-$12,000 with spare kits but nobody would buy them. And instead you want them to start from scratch with a new product that costs more to build.

OK, great. Now explain to me again why it would be a good idea (from their viewpoint) for an OE to build and try to sell a GP-famed 250cc four-stroke for road racing.

Short version: There is no good reason, there is no market, there is no distribution to provide the needed price point, there's no worldwide demand, they'll cost more to maintain and fix when they blow up, and it's a nice thing to think about but completely unrealistic. Ya'll are trying to re-invent the wheel here.

Now I am sure some experts will come along to explain how I don't know what I am talking about. OK. Be sure to include your frame of reference, experience and sources when you do so.

#29
1996 WERA 125cc Grand Prix National Challenge Series Champion
1975 AFM, CMC and MRA 125cc Champion

 

My idea is that the manufacturers already make a bunch of 250cc and 450cc 4-stroke engines, why not just modify the current 2-stroke chassis and use those? 2-Strokes are a dying breed worldwide, that's why the premiere class switched to 4-strokes in the first place. Emissions restrictions are only going to get more strict not less. Sure, you'd only be producing the 2-stroke machines for race use but it doesn't really make business sense to keep production lines open for them when you can't sell the engines for mass market use. The last enclave for 2-strokes is the developing world but that won't last forever unless someone comes up with break through emissions control technology for them.

Its true that 4 strokes are more complicated and costly to rebuild. But look at motocross, they made the switch to 4-stroke and it hasn't exactly brought on the apocalypse. I guess another selfish motivation for me is to see 450cc street legal sportbikes in the same vane as the NSR250 and various 400 cc sportbikes of the 90's.

 

Motocross had demand for 250cc and 450cc four-strokes vs. 125cc and 250cc two-strokes. In the U.S. the on-pavement demand is for 600cc and 1000cc four-strokes. Which is why 400cc sportbikes went away and why 500cc streebikes are no longer a big segment. Emissions rules don't apply to closed-course race vehicles (see, leaded racing fuel.)

They're still making 125cc two-stroke racebikes. They're not gonna drop a 250cc four-stroke engine into an existing 125cc chassis without a complete engineering review and probably modification of the frame. That takes engineering time, staff and money. There is no existing market.

Nice ideas. No basis in reality. Won't happen. Other than you think its sounds good, your factual basis for thinking this will work is, what?

 

In a heart beat. But as JU indicates, there appears to be no motivation for the manufacturers to offer such an animal.

 

Whoa! Your fancy writing skills and real knowledge have no place on this board

I think that there are just a lot of people who'd like to have a bike like that eventually. So in ~6 years do you see an RSF250? I'd like to see an RS125 chassis with a 4-stroke 250 motor that has EFI and a thermostat . I believe you'd use less pistons, probably equal amount of cranks, and maybe a little less cylinders. Learning 4-stroke maintenance can't be that bad; with the manuals they supply, everything is really easy anyhow. The 4-strokes don't blow up as much as 2-strokes, right? That leaves the valvetrain, how much does stuff like that cost?

 

Well, seeing as this thread is about the Red Bull Rookies Cup using 125cc two-strokes, and Americans participating in same, how about we get back on topic and leave the Great Marketing Ideas for another thread?

 

Ju, this thread has officially been jacked and any attempt to bring it back to center should be summarily dismissed.

 

Extending that logic the 500cc GP bikes should still be around. After all, emissions rules don't apply to them and they had already been building them for a long time so no need to waste money switching to 4-strokes.

But of course they did switch to 4-stroke engines, why not just make it complete and do it for the 125 and 250 GP championships as well? I suppose in those two championships you have more small manufacturers so a switch would probably be more of a financial hardship than it was for the GP500/Moto GP manufacturers.

Perhaps it would be cheaper to just continue making the 125's and 250's as is but at some point its a waste of resources to keep a production line up just to make these 2-stroke motors that they cannot use anywhere else. That's part of the reason you don't see any of the Japanese manufacturers making low volume homologated specials like the OW02 or RC45 anymore. They'd rather spread their cost over mass-produced machinery.

 

One more time: They're building 125cc two-stoke racebikes already. They can't sell them here through their dealer networks; they tried, and failed. You want them to try again with a product that costs more to build and for which there is no popular class (definition of a popular class would be 600cc Superstock) and which in your theory uses fewer parts during a season to boot. No known market, more expensive to build, additional engineering and tooling required, and uses fewer parts in an given time frame.

OK, now explain to the board of directors of XYZ Corp. why this is the best way to use company resources.

 

How bout 800cc MotoGP, 400cc twin 4-strokes, and 200cc single 4-strokes?

Are "foreign" (non-US) markets still wide open with two stroke bikes that have any sort of connection to 250 and 125GP bikes?

I am a very big fan of two stroke bikes, but ... there is certainly no market for them in most of the developed countries of the world as there was, say, 25 years ago.

Added on edit: the purpose of my questions is to determine the viability of ALL major markets having similar classes/bikes available. Yamaha would sell the TZ200 and TZ400; Honda with the RS200 and RS400, etc.

 

MotoGP promotes 1000cc streebikes. 500cc GP bikes were too expensive for widespread racing use.

125cc GP and 250cc GP bikes promote nothing streetable in the U.S. but exist in many national series worldwide and people can afford to buy adn run them.

250cc four-strokes on pavement also promote nothing streetable in the U.S., but cost more to make than 125cc two-strokes already being made.

Your argument works for replacing 125cc GP with 600cc Supersport or Superbike. It does not work for replacing 125cc GP bikes with purpose-built 250cc 4/s GP bikes.

Eiii, why do I let myself get sucked into these discussions?

 

If in 6 years they may go to 4-strokes in world 125GP then they could be loosely based on those bikes and there would be interest in the class. would that affect anything?

 

Purpose built 400cc four-stroke twins have no promotable streetbike connection and will blow up more and cost more to run.

Which is why talk of 125cc GP and 250cc two-stroke GP classes being replaced by four-stroke classes went away even in the FIM World GP Series. Too expensive for World Championship = too expensive for Billy Joe Bob kid racer and his dad. Almost anybody can rebuild a two-stroke. Almost anybody can screw up building a high rpm racing four-stroke.

Hey, in my day I've raced a lot of different stuff including Yoshima CB400Fs and Moriwaki 1000s, RS125s, TZ250s. Even raced a 500cc Honda Single in a WASCO frame with Bruce Lind in a 6-hour in Portland in 1980. Four-stroke Singles are fun to ride. No market.

 

Maybe some day, Nick, my explosive-loving BBS collegue, maybe some day. But for now Darrin's dreams of lovely $10,000 four-stroke 250s in GP frames will have to wait, unless some rich guy with nothing better to do decides to blow some money on building them and promoting a viable class...let me know when it happens