Why no airfence at Cycle Jam?

John, my whole issue with both Miller and Barber is that both tracks were designed from a blank sheet of paper and both had sufficient financial backing. I would agree that from a comparison point, with other existing tracks, they both represent venues that are safer.

With that being said I am still dumbfounded by certain aspects of both tracks that in my opinion should not even be an issue. Pit out and pit in being an example. Yes, I have been to both tracks.

I guess I don't understand how both tracks have had to make significant changes in the name of safety so soon after being built all the while hailing Mr. Wilson as some sort of track designer God.

Rant Off.

 

Name somebody who, on balance, has designed two better tracks (in terms of motorcycle racing suitability) that have actually been built in the United States?

 

I have no idea who designed them but Brainerd, Road America, and VIR come to mind. Even Putnam.

Again I am not discounting Miller and Barber as being unsafe. I am just puzzled by the fact that both newly built tracks have had to make major changes relative to safety. What does it take these days $100 million? As it seems that $70-80 does not get it done completely.

 

of those 3, i have ridden 2 of them. BIR has it's issues, it's sure as hell isn't 99% safe.
we have to have airfence at the base of the tower and the bridge. the end of the concrete wall at the exit of T10 would probably kill ya if ya hit it. i had a tank slapper right there last month that had me lock to lock, with the back wheel a foot in the air. 3 feet to the left at most and it could have been ugly.
other possible issues are the trees on the outside of T2 and lack of run off in many of the corners, but you learn to ride with those things in mind.
hopefully one day some thing get fixed, we'll see...........

 

I submit track designer Ed Bargy. He designed Talladega Gran Prix, designed its remodel, and designed Jennings GP. :up:

 

he he.

 

Actually, you threw Loudon in there as a way of suggesting I have no right to comment on any other track. There really is no comparison between a Nascar track adapted as an afterthought to motorcycle racing, and a track built specifically for that purpose. Everything is relative, but comparing a 65 Volkswagen to a new Masserati with a dent in the fender doesn't mean there isn't a dent in the fender.

Conditions at Loudon have nothing to do with conditions at Barber or MMP.
No, I haven't been to Miller, but I did read about the problems there in your magazine.

I have been to Barber, and pit in there is poorly designed for a purpose-built track. Saying Loudon is worse changes that not one whit. If we were discussing gearing or tires or suspension, I wouldn't comment because I know jack shit about those things. We are, however, talking track design as it relates to safety, and Wilson dropped the ball there in a couple places.
And I have enough experience and knowledge to recognize that fact and don't see where my opinion is negated because the track I work at most often pales in comparison to Barber.

If it makes you feel superior to imply that I'm stupid, have at it, but just because you publish RRW doesn't mean yours is the only valid opinion, and anyone who disagrees is an idiot.

And I have had a subscription to the magazine for many years and actually read the articles (and the website). It's where I read about the changes that had to be made at MMP and why the riders felt those changes were needed. Me not having been there (yet) has no bearing on those events, or on discussing track design.

But if it seems logical to you to imply there's nothing wrong with the pit in design at Barber because Loudon is a second-rate track, fine.

 

Hey, the bottom line is, something has to be done. Tax us, yes tax us, I don't think there is anyone out there who is not willing to pay for safety. Most racers won't think twice about spending a G on suspension, or the promise of 4 horses. $$$ towards airfence, we'll pay it.

Cycle Jam was horrible , lots of injuries and worse, RIP Chris, but things happen for a reason. Randy King hit an unprotected wall at the bottom of 4, even if we had a bunch of air fence, none would have been there. As Mongo would say, " nobody ever crashes there, so we don't need to have it there" No offense, I know that the little we have, needs to go to the most prone areas. But to be truly as safe as we can be, it needs to be wherever there is even a chance. Road A is a dangerous place, No race track will ever be "safe " for bike racers, but we can definitely do more. And I think we will be more than willing to pay for MORE...

 

Ancient racing philosopher say

"There are no safe race tracks. It's just that some are a little less dangerous than others."

 

Actually, corner, we agree on a lot of stuff, and you seem to have missed my editorial comments regarding Barber published last year. And yeah, pit in and pit out there suck in my opinion. All I'm saying is, relative to the rest of the place, and relative to most tracks we race on, the stuff that was changed (and note that they did change it before the first races) at Miller was minor, minor, minor. And I still believe that people should actually see a racetrack before using it as an example to advance an argument.

If you had seen Miller, even you would have to find the irony in even discussing it in the same breath as Loudon. (Note: I am in favor of anybody who wants to, racing at Loudon, and I once won on the boulder-bordered Bryar course that NHIS replaced. I just personally prefer a little less concrete in my line of sight... )

 

Which issue was that in, I usually have at least a year's worth sitting on the coffee table, I'd be interested to read it. I pretty much read every issue cover to cover, but don't recall everything I've read.

Loudon's a fun course, and thankfully, a lot of those walls now have Alpina Defenders in front of them, but it certainly isn't compatible with balls to the wall superbike racing. It would be nice if they'd build out into the back area known as Animal Hill and take the Nascar track out altogether, theres lots of land, enough for the long straights and sweepers Loudon doesn't have now.

The old track was fun too, but it had a lot of scary sections. Crashing into the pond probably wasn't a good experience.
Unfortunately, I don't think Bob Bahre is going to sink the money into a nice road course which is probably the only way the AMA will ever come back.
I don't know if Jerry showed you Eric's suggestions for mods to the existing course, it is an improvement, but there are simply too many spots without enough run-off. I hate seeing racers needlessly injured, it's dangerous enough with the possibility of being run over or punched with your own bike.

I like working club races and we have some fast guys, but I miss the big show. Now I have to travel a long way to see the pros.

I'd like to see Miller, it sounds like quite the facility. Maybe next year.

 

July 2005, page 12.

 

Sorry if this is a thread jack...

As a nooby racer, I wanted to ask what the problem is with pit in and out at Barber? I did an endurance there, and I thought they both worked very well. Is it the narrowness and walled-up nature of the lanes, or is it the way they leave/enter the track?

I'm not tyrying to argue, I'm asking to gain understanding. If a person with the experience of JU says that they have issues, then they have issues, period. I just dont' know what they are.

I'm assuming (pit-in especially) it's the proximity to walls, but I guess I assume that pit roads will have walls. Having raced at Road Atlanta this weekend, I thought that the blind entrance to pit road was sketchier than the entrance at Barber, for example.

Anyway, if you wouldn't mind explaining it I'd appreciate it. Thanks!

 

I will take a stab at this:

• Pit out isn't too bad: lined with armco, going downhill (not a big deal), and entering track close to the race line.
• Pit in: tightly lined with armco, when you first leave the track you are pointed straight at a tire wal, down hill with tight turn at the bottom, and you leave the track directly on the race line

 

what he said

 

Good editorial, I agree with it 100%. I like the fact you also ask track workers to help identify problems. I have and will continue to do so.
I have never raced, but when you stand on a corner all day and watch crashes, you learn a lot about what's possible, not just what's likely. In at least 3 corners at Loudon, cornerworkers are stationed in the crash zone.
Being able to imagine what could happen is a matter of self-preservation.
When Thomas Wilson had his career-ending crash at Loudon, his bike hit the wall at over 100mph right where I had been standing just 2 seconds before.
We'd never seen a bike hit there, either. It was a learning experience.
Tom, btw, is a class act, when the AMA returned the following year, he made it a point to look me up and thank me for the help I gave him that day.
Very nice guy, and obviously a very tough guy.

Anyway, nice to see we're on the same page when it comes to track safety.

 

Actually, the only stuff I read about Miller was from RRW.
My comments didn't include the track as a whole, which I hear great things about, just pit out, with a mention of the corner where they were asked to move the wall back. When and if I get there, I'll let you know what I think.
I'll admit my opinion would be more legitimate if I saw it for myself, I've certainly read enough comments on the internet condemning Loudon as a death trap, written by people who have never seen it, especially in response to the infamous video of the T2 incident.

On the whole, I like Barber, I just didn't like pit in or that four foot fence, and noticed some spots with armco or tires that would be less threatening with soft barriers in front of them.