When I can fit in the Vansons I may rr again. I've got about 8 lbs to lose to get to my goal, then I'll try them on. Check out my favorite riding place www.highlandparkresort.com
I posted the tech data a page or two ago so follow those suggestions. And the most common mistake with rains is lowering the pressure or overheating them. Too low pressures cause the grooves to close so the water has not place to go and they hydro plane. With the rain cooling the tires and the cloud cover keeping the track cold heating them to 170F makes no sense because in a half a lap they're going to cool to 120F or there about.
No, no! In dry conditions you can see operating temps of 160f to 195f right? And that's the reason you heat slicks and DOTs to these temps for 40 to 60 minutes before you go on the track. But in wet conditions the water is the GREAT cooling influence so the tires aren't going to get as warm as they would in the dry. So if you heat the rains to 190f and go out the water and conditions are ONLY going to cool the tires down, and it can happen very quickly. Simply put rain compounds are designed to work at cooler temps and with water, so that's why you heat rains only to about 120f for 20 to 30 minutes. Hope this helps, and check the tech data chart I posted earlier on this post to see more.
Yup thanks that makes sense. I have never run warmers, Dunlop Q3+ are good enough for my pace at present I'll get there some day...!
I don't have much experience in the wet, but the few times I rode in the wet I did pretty well. My best race finishes this year have been in the wet riding on rains of course. Last year at Road America was my first time riding a 600 in pouring rain. I was pretty nervous but I started looking at lap times from other races. I noticed that Jason Farrell was running almost the same times in those conditions that I was doing in the dry! So then I thought "well shit, that means that pace is clearly possible in the rain, so I don't have to slow down too much from my regular pace". And that's what I did. And that's what I still do now, even though my pace has improved overall. Most of the top guys seem to drop about 15-20 seconds a lap in the wet depending on the track and the actual conditions of course. I drop by about 8-12 seconds which puts me at the same level then, the difference is that I'm about 6-8 seconds slower than them in the dry when conditions are perfect lol...that's the part I gotta figure out still lol
I grew up riding dirt bikes and spent plenty of time in mud and sand so I'm pretty comfortable with a bike moving around. My technique has been as said above, get as much braking done straight up and down as possible (you'd be surprised how hard you can brake) and then just carry a little more speed and get on the gas a little sooner until you get a little wiggle. Then you know where the limit is and back off from that a bit. I guess realistically that's how all riding is, but it's much easier to find and play with the limit in the rain than in the dry. The first race I ever ran that was full wet was my first race win, and I was dicing it up with the leading experts for most of the race, so I guess it came kind of naturally to me. As Melka said above though, it is nerve racking... that first race for me was a GTO race, so 25 min of constantly thinking I was going to crash in every corner was definitely draining.
indeed. It's interesting that many won't use warmers on rain tires.. why not ? some tire vendors tell riders not to, i suspect because they fear the rider won't hear the part where they say "heat to 120f (or so) " .. they will just put the warmers on "high" like they normally do, cooking the mega-soft compound. watch motoGP, wsbk, Irish road racing.. you will see warmers on rains.
I'm sure there's no issue using them as described above, just to get the chill off them and not go over 120F. At the Pitt MotoAmerica round when I bought a set of rains, the sheet they gave me specifically said not to use warmers. Dunno! Seems like 75% of the time I need to use rains it's because a storm comes rolling in and you're making that last minute decision on tire choice so they go on cold.
With all due respect I really don't follow brand x, y, & z and their usage requirements because I worked for the best tire company. That said the Pirelli spec for rains is 15-30 minutes at 104f to 122f on the warmers, right? And we can agree that we cook rains for less time and temp than dry tires, right? So maybe these vendors are saying don't bother with warmers because by the time a club racer gets on track the tires are already pretty cold? I look/see it in this way. At a professional race the teams are in boxes behind hot pit. The mechanic put the warmers on and then a bit later the track opens for the race, practice, or what ever. The rider hops on the bike and immediately goes on track and is up to pace within a 1/2 lap or so. So the perfect scenario right? But typically at a club race the rider hears second call then pulls off his own warmers. Then hops on the bike and rides for a minute or so to get to pit out. Then if lucky he goes right on track. But what if he is held until the last bike comes off track, or even delayed because of a crash truck run? So keeping heat in a rain tire at a club race is difficult and more sensitive than dry tires and the vendors recognize this? MDM to the white courtesy phone please, we need your input
easy Tiger. No need for the cavalry i wasn't disagreeing with you in any way shape or form... i was stating that "Indeed" .. ya really should use warmers on rains. And that it's interesting how often when you tell riders to do that, they look at you like you have a 3rd eye in your forehead.
Hey Greg I got your point so we're good. My point was if the others brands say something it probably doesn't apply to the big P. And the reason I'm around is to debunk the BS and give factual information to help these guys. Finally I'm amazed that so much about roadracing tires or tires in general confuses so many. Time for dinner and a Donzi blast across the lake!
i really believe vendors say to not use warmers as they are fearful of people with single temp warmers, melting the rains.. it can happen. not everyone has dual/tri/digital warmers, and they often are rushing around and mistakenly put em on high. but yea, watch motogp, wsbk, etc.. there's a reason you run warmers (on low temp) on rains. they work better, faster.
Jeff pretty much nailed exactly why I recommend against warmers on rains MOST of the time. The majority of club racers aren't using warmers on DRY tires correctly (meaning they're running inadequate power cords off of an unreliable power supply on warmers they haven't verified are getting to temp that they leave bunched up on the ground when they go out after they've checked pressure with a gauge that isn't accurate). At least one of those factors is an issue for most club racers. Some, more so at certain tracks. Like, at Summit, where almost everyone is pitted away from the power sources, which are terrible to begin with, and using 200' of 18 gauge cord to run two sets of warmers. I used to recommend warmers on rains until it went wrong enough times that it became counter productive. We also did some testing with temp probes and found that at most tracks, tires were losing almost all that heat when rains were being used in rain tire appropriate conditions by the time they got on track from their pits. Sure, there was heat in the carcass from the warmers, but a proper warm up lap got most tires where they needed to be without warmers if cold pressures were correct. The pressures we'll recommend trackside are taking into consideration exactly how wet the track is (I'll talk to racers as they come off track and ask about standing water, etc) and what ambient temperatures are like and what that track's surface is like.
And I'll add that, just like with dry tires, rain tires are all about temperature management. People obsess over psi because that's what we have to use because everyone is used to dealing with psi and very, very few people have temp probes or IR temp guns. But pressure is really just the way we're managing operating temperature, which is truly the important number. The idea that lowering pressure increases grip, especially with rain tires, doesn't make sense. Running lower pressures on rain tires, first and foremost, allows the tire to flex too much, which closes the sipes and negates the ability of the tire to mechanically displace water. It's been a long day, but another time we can also talk about how lowering pressure on the warmers (or cold psi sans warmers) can actually yield the opposite desired effect at operating temps, which is also relevant to rains in certain conditions.
I didn't read all the posts before I blabbed on, so some of what I posted was redundant. Lots of good info from Jeff, as usual.
MotoGP is definitely another ball-game for for what it's worth, I didn't see any tire warmers on the grid for the NJMP MotoAmerica races. I went back to rewatch all of them since all the classes ran in the rain, but unfortunately the MA coverage doesn't start until a few seconds before the green flag for the superbike and supersport races. But I did see footage from the junior cup grid and nobody even had a front stand on the bikes because they didn't put warmers on the tires. While it would be nice to have the tires warmed up some, like Mike said, we'd lose all that heat by the time the race starts so what's the point? Hell, a lot of us can't even keep that heat in the dry on slicks or DOTs! I know my tires are at their highest temperature on my warm-up laps! lol Never taken a real temp measurement, only did the good old "put yer hand on it" test, but I'm betting that from the warm-up lap to the last lap, I'm probably losing 10-15 degrees easily.
do what ya want.. rain tires get warm. well over 120f if you go fast. WSBK/WSS are selling the same tires here, that they race on, and they are using warmers there. Are motogp rains different than what we use? perhaps.. but the fact remains they use warmers on them. Please explain your logic on why if they use warmers, why it would be a bad thing to use them on tires you and I can purchase. I'll say it again.. rains get well over 120F if you are fast in the rain. if the ambient temp is 65F, why would you choose to not warm the rains before you head out on a wet track? How would that be different than saying "fuck it.. my DOT race tires will get up to temp in 3 laps, i don't need warmers" Do you NEED to use warmers on rains? of course not, but you'd be better of if ya did..
