Vintage in the future [Archive]

Wine Slut

07-29-2001, 09:19 PM

Mark, heavy thoughts... Some would ask why we need to change anything at all? We seem to be growing every year. Is there a chance of losing vintage inc.? I think that we have a decent relationship with wera right now, but sometimes it's hard to not feel we are the most expendable part of wera. (I'm sure that we are as far as $$$ is concerned) As long as "that other vintage organization" dosen't require bellypans, that the rule does discourage those people from racing with us. Though I was very much against it, I'm not so sure the bellypans are so bad. Our class structure is a little long in the tooth theese days. There two types of vintage competitors; people that race an old bike because of the emotional or classic appeal of a certain bike, and those that are looking for a place for their "old" bike to remain competitive. V5 + v6 are growing because of this second group. Any time someone calls Rick with the "I have a (insert bike here) and its not competitive in (insert modern class here) can I run with vintage?" question, the bike gets lumped into v5 or v6. This is good for those two classes, but there is no " trickle down" to other classes. I think that the less competitive bikes in each class could be " bumped down" to the next older class. There are certainly many bikes that aren't fast enough to win in v5 that sre illegal for v4. This proccess could continue down to v3, and from v3 to v2 etc....I also never realy understood why the 2-strokes need their own class. If you take me out of the picture, I think all of the 2-strokes fit in well with v4. Formula 500 is also very close to v3, but I do see the appeal of having a class thats very similar to "that other vintage groups" classes. If we are working towards a stand alone thing then I don't think all of the classes are bad, but if we are going to continue to run with wera, I think we need to streamline our program. Every year, there more problems with getting all of the races run on sunday and I think its only a matter of time before wera moves some of the sunday races to sat. I don't want to come off as ungrateful or "down" on wera, I learned all of my race-craft w/ wera, starting in '95, and all of the people are simply GREAT! However, I think that we often have different needs as racing organizations and it may be time for change. How many people realize how much of our racing expenses are absorbed by wera? This brings me to your first point: maybe it is time to have some type of "gathering of the minds" to see where we are and where we might go. Thats all for now, anyone else????????

Cyclephoto

07-30-2001, 07:41 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rzracer39
If we are working towards a stand alone thing then I don't think all of the classes are bad, but if we are going to continue to run with wera, I think we need to streamline our program.

Mark:
Except for the pre Daytona and Summit Point events, our the Vintage entries have been down this year. We don't know if its the belly pans or what.

As I understand it the pre Daytona event just about pays for itself. Our normal race entries could never pay for track rental, insurance, corner workers and Medical Staff.

We need WERA. We need to stay part of their Sportsman program. I believe they want us to administrate the Vintage program (create and update the classes, enforse Vintage and WERA rules, and maintain the national and regional points)ourselves, as Rick and Lynne have established.

So, yes we may need to look at our current classes, and work with WERA to make sure we maintain and build our program. Mark Mitchell

[This message has been edited by Cyclephoto (edited 07-30-2001).]

Wine Slut

07-31-2001, 04:02 AM

I can't believe no one else has any thoughts....

Mongo

07-31-2001, 10:48 AM

Me either, I was looking forward to hearing some. FWIW I think te belly pans did affect the entries - however I alos think they save riders from getting hurt so it's a trade-off that is worth it. Even the 2-stroke guys are coming around to understanding that they work.

I'd vote for things staying pretty much the same as far as the overall setup. Rick and Lynne do a great job and the program is successful. The entry issue I feel will change once people get over being pissed about the bellypans.

schwantzmobile

07-31-2001, 12:12 PM

For what its worth, I think Rick/Lynn AKA WERAVintage do an excellent job. I like the fact that when you go to Rick with a question or problem, his approach is to try and get you on the track and racing, he doesn’t function as just a gate keeper to say no.

As for WERA, Sean and 'The Boss" they have been nothing less than helpful with anything we’ve brought to them. To me, we are lucky, lucky to mostly be devoid of politics, lawyers, the AMA and Jerk-off racers/team owners.

I think as availability of these beautiful old bikes and parts dwindle, so will the ranks of the classes to run them. Vintage will continue to grow in the bikes that: 1. Are available. 2. Bikes that riders have the most history with and or identify with. V5 and 6 will become the cash cows of Vintage, and why not.

What we will need to do, soon (my opinion) is have a class or classes for all those 600’s and 750’s that sit in garages because their contingency/ competitive status has expired. This means cash!, cash that can be used to subsidize the truly historic classes, for events and P.R. that’s designed to get some interest in racing these bikes from younger as well as older riders. Vintage needs to be first inline to get these racers and their bikes.

(My 1.5 cents)
#80 expert /V6
Byron Tucker

Cyclephoto

07-31-2001, 08:05 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by schwantzmobile:
What we will need to do, soon (my opinion) is have a class or classes for all those 600’s and 750’s that sit in garages because their contingency/ competitive status has expired. This means cash!, cash that can be used to subsidize the truly historic classes, for events and P.R. that’s designed to get some interest in racing these bikes from younger as well as older riders. Vintage needs to be first inline to get these racers and their bikes.

Well said Byron, I would like to see us establish a Super Vintage group with V4 becomming a 600 class, V5 becomming a 750 class and V6, becomming a 1,000 class.
Mark Mitchell

[This message has been edited by Cyclephoto (edited 07-31-2001).]

Cyclephoto

07-31-2001, 08:34 PM

Cyclephoto

07-31-2001, 09:19 PM

Originally posted by Mongo:
Me either, I was looking forward to hearing some. FWIW I think te belly pans did affect the entries - however I alos think they save riders from getting hurt so it's a trade-off that is worth it. Even the 2-stroke guys are coming around to understanding that they work.

I'd vote for things staying pretty much the same as far as the overall setup. Rick and Lynne do a great job and the program is successful. The entry issue I feel will change once people get over being pissed about the bellypans.

As someone who's involved with Vintage tech, I've been impressed by the riders creative engineering, regarding getting belly pans on the various Vintage frames. Once they realized they were going to have to do it, they pretty much stopped bitching and just did it.

What needs to happen for us to have V6 race with us on the Saturday Vintage program?
Or are they more comfortable with the bikes that run on Sunday?

Mongo

07-31-2001, 10:01 PM

Speedwise they fit better on Sunday. My problem is that they don't fit in with any of the other V classes (at least not safely) so they would need a race of their own. Saturday is almost too crowded as it is without adding in another race. Some days I wish we could fit all the V on Sunday....

Greg_Gabis

07-31-2001, 10:55 PM

I've only raced the last two years, so I don't have much to compare to, but I've been really impressed with WERA Vintage so far. Last year with my GS in V5 and this year with my SRX in V4.

I've had a great time, got to know a few folks, and had some exciting races. The sportsmanship of my fellow vintage racers is beyond compare. I do wish that we could get more interest in the vintage ranks. There are a lot of fun and inexpensive bikes that can also be run in the modern classes on Sunday, too.

As long as vintage exists, I will have an older bike to come out and play with y'all.

As far as improvements, I have no suggestions...yet. Just wait a bit and I won't shut up! http://www.wera.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

schwantzmobile

08-01-2001, 01:40 PM

Mongo is very right, V6 has had some very bad things happen even when paired with HW Twins, any V class would be worse. Also on the "V6 to run on Sat". Last year, a few V6 riders approached me and said they wanted to ride on Sat. with the rest of vintage, I took a pole of V6 riders and most wanted to stay on Sunday because it was easier for them to make it. V6 is kinda weird, many riders (V6) feel vintage guys don't think they are truly vintage, and the Sunday riders think we are vintage and don't belong there. I personally have friends in both camps and have never heard a bad word one way or the other. Racers are racers.

I'd like to see a V7 and V8 for 600's and 750-1000 with some cutoff. '90-'96? and then add a year to the cut off each year after.

Diesel

08-01-2001, 02:07 PM

Originally posted by Cyclephoto:

Can we attract AHRMA racers to WERA Vintage, in light of the belly pan rule?

Why are the numbers in Classic Lightweight, Mediumweight and Heavyweight down and the numbers in V5 and V6 increasing?

Questions? Answers? Ideas?

First off I don't think reducing the number of classes is an option if we are looking to increase participation and encourage a diversity in motorcycle brands being raced. A reduction in the number of classes will reduce the number of bikes that can be competitve. This certainly is no way to generate interest in our sport.

I agree that we need to make vintage racing more profitable. Yes this means allowing more of the so called super-vintage bikes to race. It's a great idea to get newbies into the vintage sport but let's not forget our brethren racing the more modern machinery. Where else could we find a more die-hard bunch of racers to recruit? For example, as the SV becomes a more potent weapon in the modern classes, the EX and FZR400 racers may look for another class to be competitive in and I think we can offer them that.

In general, I think we will have to move with the times and come to accept the fact that the state of the art bikes we had in college (like the Henderson four in Cyclephoto's day http://www.wera.com/ubb/smile.gif ) are now old and eligible for vintage racing. We need to make room for them among our ranks and make them feel like a part of the vintage crew. Yes, Dale and Robert, you are family and we love ya! But at a comfortable distance. http://www.wera.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

schwantzmobile

08-01-2001, 02:32 PM

"EX and FZR400 racers may look for another class to be competitive in and I think
we can offer them that. "

Vintage racing should be a re-cycling of past competitive bikes.

FED34FIRE

08-02-2001, 11:25 AM

Originally posted by Cyclephoto:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by schwantzmobile:
What we will need to do, soon (my opinion) is have a class or classes for all those 600’s and 750’s that sit in garages because their contingency/ competitive status has expired. This means cash!, cash that can be used to subsidize the truly historic classes, for events and P.R. that’s designed to get some interest in racing these bikes from younger as well as older riders. Vintage needs to be first inline to get these racers and their bikes.

Well said Byron, I would like to see us establish a Super Vintage group with V4 becomming a 600 class, V5 becomming a 750 class and V6, becomming a 1,000 class.
Mark Mitchell

[This message has been edited by Cyclephoto (edited 07-31-2001).]

I know I'm new but, V4 for 600, V5 for 750, and V6 for open class sounds like a great idea. It was strange to be out there in V5 on a 600 going against 750's, 750 two strokes, CBX, etc. Think this would be a better line up. Same goes for practice. An '86 600 does not belong with modern 600's in the Novice or Expert Practice group. The 600's of today are probably faster and definitly handle better than my '88 FZR1000 which still is a very fast machine.
Have friends who run AHRMA and USCRA who also feel there should be some way of seperating Novice's from Experts.

Henry R. Picco
P.N. #600

RICKY LOVE

08-02-2001, 11:54 AM

Amen, my practice group is with Light Weight and my little VF500 is in the way I feel of the SV's and most everything else even when the throttle is pinned with a second handful. http://www.wera.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Looking at the 48hp http://www.wera.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif Honda said it had in '85 it isn't competetive with much of anything in the classes it is legal in. The SS EX's and GS's can come to V5 but the VF can't go to Clubman; not that it could do anything in there without some major steroids to the engine. I wouldn't mind seeing it knocked back one class to V4. That would make it more realistic for the bike but the then the rider would need a handicap headstart. http://www.wera.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

lizard84

08-02-2001, 08:54 PM

As someone said on another thread,

"Welcome to the world of obsolete machinery"

Obsolete, does not, a vintage bike make.

If you must add a class, do so. but leave the classes, at least from V-4 down, alone.

Unless you change the rules & will let me ride my GS-450 in V-3 http://www.wera.com/ubb/smile.gif

Cyclephoto

08-02-2001, 09:17 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by FZRDUDE:
[B] I know I'm new but, V4 for 600, V5 for 750, and V6 for open class sounds like a great idea.

I'm going to stick my neck out again. A few years ago Rick Breckon established the "Classic" classes in an attempt to attract "Historic" racers from USCRA and AHRMA. For whatever reasons those classes have not had many entries. As has been pointed out here, the bikes of the 50's and 60's are becomming harder to race and fix.
(Jens I'm shocked you even know about the Henderson 4cyl)

Perhaps it's time to think about those FZR's and FJ 600's, FZR and FJ 750's.

I feel that we can still maintain enough classes for the Historic stuff (50's, 60's and early 70's). We already have a good class structure in V1, V2 for the Japenese invasion,175's 350's 450's. V3 has been a catch all class for some time.

So, in my opinion we could think about a "Super Vintage" group of classes, that could run together, and perhaps give Vintage a greater presence on Sunday.

I'd be interested in thoughts from the "Historic" group, the "Vintage" group and the "Super Vintage" group. We're just thinking out loud here; keeping in mind the best interests of the WERA Vintage program.

[This message has been edited by Cyclephoto (edited 08-02-2001).]

FED34FIRE

08-03-2001, 12:23 PM

Originally posted by Cyclephoto:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by FZRDUDE:
[B] I know I'm new but, V4 for 600, V5 for 750, and V6 for open class sounds like a great idea.

I'm going to stick my neck out again. A few years ago Rick Breckon established the "Classic" classes in an attempt to attract "Historic" racers from USCRA and AHRMA. For whatever reasons those classes have not had many entries. As has been pointed out here, the bikes of the 50's and 60's are becomming harder to race and fix.
(Jens I'm shocked you even know about the Henderson 4cyl)

Perhaps it's time to think about those FZR's and FJ 600's, FZR and FJ 750's.

I feel that we can still maintain enough classes for the Historic stuff (50's, 60's and early 70's). We already have a good class structure in V1, V2 for the Japenese invasion,175's 350's 450's. V3 has been a catch all class for some time.

So, in my opinion we could think about a "Super Vintage" group of classes, that could run together, and perhaps give Vintage a greater presence on Sunday.

I'd be interested in thoughts from the "Historic" group, the "Vintage" group and the "Super Vintage" group. We're just thinking out loud here; keeping in mind the best interests of the WERA Vintage program.

[This message has been edited by Cyclephoto
(edited 08-02-2001).]

So, V5, V6, and a new class V7? Or Grid three Super Vintage Classes together on Sunday like the Can Am/ Le mans series car races. With the excellent riders in Vintage it could work. Sounds cool. Only thing, schedule is already a full one for both Saturday and Sunday. Not taking into account Red Flags and tracks like Summit Point where the "Concerned Citizens Against Road Racing" won't allow us to race past 6:00PM. I guess Cow's need there sleep too! Because I didn't see one home near there. It's Bridghampton all over again. The point that I am trying to make is more about safety and everyone having a chance of reaching a podium. I'm sure that in time I will be competitive with the open class bikes and very fast riders in V5. I just thought a Novice/Expert format and the practice issue I brought up could be looked into. I think WERA does a great job. In my opion WERA has one up on the other Vintage Organizations and that is the Super Vintage Classes and in time more of the bikes that I rode an watched growing up in th 70' and 80' will turn up on the grids. To me there is nothing cooler than Vintage racing and WERA has the best format. Just a Newbies opinon.

Diesel

08-03-2001, 01:05 PM

Originally posted by FZRDUDE:
I just thought a Novice/Expert format and the practice issue I brought up could be looked into.

The novice/expert format works well in the popular modern classes with large grid sizes but I don't see much need for it in vintage. Besides, I think most vintage novices bump up to expert status after their first year of racing anyway.

Cyclephoto

08-03-2001, 09:57 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cyclephoto:
[B] As someone who's involved with Vintage tech, I've been impressed by the riders creative engineering, regarding getting belly pans on the various Vintage frames.

The flip side of the belly pan rule, is that unlike the modern bikes that can have their pans incorperated into their fairings, the Vintage guys have had to come up with unique designs.

Again unlike the modern bikes, which are wet sump crankcases, many of the "Historic" bikes are dry sump crankcases or as in the case of two stroke's, no oil crankcases.

I have seen some sketchy/dangerous belly pans. I know of some crashes caused by riders grounding their pans and lifting a wheel. (My BMW's pan has had to be lifted until it is now nothing more than a pretty skid plate).
We have no guidelines as to what is acceptable. I've seen cookie sheets saftey wired, or zip tied on.
What is WERA's libability if a Vintage belly pan comes adrift on the track and causes injury? death?

Diesel

08-04-2001, 12:55 AM

Originally posted by Cyclephoto:
The flip side of the belly pan rule, is that unlike the modern bikes that can have their pans incorperated into their fairings, the Vintage guys have had to come up with unique designs... I have seen some sketchy/dangerous belly pans. I know of some crashes caused by riders grounding their pans and lifting a wheel.

I know this is going to be a very unpopular thing for me to say but:

It may be difficult to design a bellypan for some bikes but for most it can be easily done. Where people make the biggest mistake is in designing a pan with a flat bottom. How many wide ass modern fours do you see with flat bottomed fairings?. The idea is to make one in which the bottom is curved or drops down to a "V" so that the ridge of the "V" runs longitudinally in line with the wheel base. Check out the pictures of my bellypan on my site. Granted only the front of mine drops into a "V" but if you'll notice in my action shots, it doesn't come in contact with the asphalt. Unless you can grind your frame or engine case in the turns, this type of design won't scrape and cannot cause you to crash (another reason I used fiberglass... it would grind away rather than levering the bike off of the track).

Even if you have to shape the pan so that it follows the contours of your case and/or exhaust system it can be done. We have a lot of very talented mechanics/fabricators among the vintage ranks as well as creative minds that can always devise a way of increasing the performance and getting the most out of their bikes. Yet am I supposed to believe that they are incapable of devising some way of fitting a sheet of steel/aluminum or fiberglass to the bottom of the bike? Look through the pits and see how many racers have spent serious cash on full fairings that stick out beyond and below the frame and motor yet they're having difficulties with forming an enclosure for the bottom of the fairing or fabricating a pan that fits within the fairing? C'mon!!

When you show up at a track, take a walk through the pits where the modern bikes are. You'll see bikes of all sizes... singles to inline fours, 2-strokes and 4-strokes with fairings that have been modified to incorporate a bellypan. Get some ideas and have the attitude that yes, you can make an effective and stylish pan. What thwarts most peoples attempts is a defeatest attitude or going about it half heartedly. Our bikes may be old but they still share the same basic design of the modern "iron" (carbonfiber, magnesium, titanium... whatever).

Also, (yep, my fingers aren't tired yet http://www.wera.com/ubb/smile.gif ) although 2-strokes don't have a sump I do believe they have gearcases that carry a lubricant of some sort and their countershaft seals can leak. Dry sump bikes may not carry oil in the sump but the oil does get to the bottom of the motor before getting pumped into the oil tank. If there is a crack in the case because the motor blew, then oil can get onto the track. Please correct me if I'm wrong but every bike has the potential of spilling oil or other slippery stuff onto the track so I don't think there should be any exceptions to the bellypan rule.

Last of all I don't think WERA came up with the pan rule for the sake of making our lives miserable. Nor do I feel they should be held accountable for the mistakes made by a racer because of his/her inability to make their bike track worthy according to the standards set forth in the rule book. We are ultimately responsible for our own stupidity or carelessness.

BTW - Sean, I'm thinking of taking legal action against WERA because I lost two of my fingertips due to my own carelessness by not having a countershaft sprocket cover on my motor. I also bought a cup of very hot coffee at Kershaw and suffered severe burns after spilling it on myself... how much do you think I can sue them for? http://www.wera.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

One last thing. If you think I'm talking out of my ass and want me to put my money where my mouth is, then come get me at the next race. Chances are I can help you come up with an idea as to where you can locate your pan.

OK gang... I'm ready for your attacks.

Tri-309

08-04-2001, 01:53 AM

Originally posted by Diesel:
I know this is going to be a very unpopular thing for me to say but:

It may be difficult to design a bellypan for some bikes but for most it can be easily done. Where people make the biggest mistake is in designing a pan with a flat bottom. How many wide ass modern fours do you see with flat bottomed fairings?. The idea is to make one in which the bottom is curved or drops down to a "V" so that the ridge of the "V" runs longitudinally in line with the wheel base. Check out the pictures of my bellypan on my site. Granted only the front of mine drops into a "V" but if you'll notice in my action shots, it doesn't come in contact with the asphalt. Unless you can grind your frame or engine case in the turns, this type of design won't scrape and cannot cause you to crash (another reason I used fiberglass... it would grind away rather than levering the bike off of the track).

Even if you have to shape the pan so that it follows the contours of your case and/or exhaust system it can be done. We have a lot of very talented mechanics/fabricators among the vintage ranks as well as creative minds that can always devise a way of increasing the performance and getting the most out of their bikes. Yet am I supposed to believe that they are incapable of devising some way of fitting a sheet of steel/aluminum or fiberglass to the bottom of the bike? Look through the pits and see how many racers have spent serious cash on full fairings that stick out beyond and below the frame and motor yet they're having difficulties with forming an enclosure for the bottom of the fairing or fabricating a pan that fits within the fairing? C'mon!!

When you show up at a track, take a walk through the pits where the modern bikes are. You'll see bikes of all sizes... singles to inline fours, 2-strokes and 4-strokes with fairings that have been modified to incorporate a bellypan. Get some ideas and have the attitude that yes, you can make an effective and stylish pan. What thwarts most peoples attempts is a defeatest attitude or going about it half heartedly. Our bikes may be old but they still share the same basic design of the modern "iron" (carbonfiber, magnesium, titanium... whatever).

Also, (yep, my fingers aren't tired yet http://www.wera.com/ubb/smile.gif ) although 2-strokes don't have a sump I do believe they have gearcases that carry a lubricant of some sort and their countershaft seals can leak. Dry sump bikes may not carry oil in the sump but the oil does get to the bottom of the motor before getting pumped into the oil tank. If there is a crack in the case because the motor blew, then oil can get onto the track. Please correct me if I'm wrong but every bike has the potential of spilling oil or other slippery stuff onto the track so I don't think there should be any exceptions to the bellypan rule.

Last of all I don't think WERA came up with the pan rule for the sake of making our lives miserable. Nor do I feel they should be held accountable for the mistakes made by a racer because of his/her inability to make their bike track worthy according to the standards set forth in the rule book. We are ultimately responsible for our own stupidity or carelessness.

BTW - Sean, I'm thinking of taking legal action against WERA because I lost two of my fingertips due to my own carelessness by not having a countershaft sprocket cover on my motor. I also bought a cup of very hot coffee at Kershaw and suffered severe burns after spilling it on myself... how much do you think I can sue them for? http://www.wera.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

One last thing. If you think I'm talking out of my ass and want me to put my money where my mouth is, then come get me at the next race. Chances are I can help you come up with an idea as to where you can locate your pan.

OK gang... I'm ready for your attacks. Yens, I just do not like the way some of the bellypans or cookie sheets ect. are being atatched to the bikes. I see safty wire on some and we all know how the light vibration of our vintage bikes snap that stuff quick.I"ve thought more about hitting someones lose pan than I have that two stroke trans oil.I think AHRMA's hot tech is more effective.IT my not help on a blow up but my tri is like franks if you put the rods through bottom you wouldn't find any oil.It's so dry it even worries me.

Cyclephoto

08-04-2001, 09:30 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Diesel:
[B] I know this is going to be a very unpopular thing for me to say but:

Yens, belly pan are probably here to stay. Your comments are important because the Vintage racers do need to put some thought into the pan design, i.e. a belly pan on a two stroke, serves no purpose if it dosen't extend under the transmission.
Should we require that all bikes have pans that extend under their tranmissions? Is a two stroke transmission more likely to blow up and spew oil, than a diesel?

I always try to praise the good designs I see at tech. However many racers are just trying to comply with the rule anyway they can. I think if were going to continue to run with pans, we will need to have an organized effort at tech to help people design and build safe belly pans.

Thanks for your thoughts and ideas. My post regarding belly pans was intended to get these ideas flowing, er.. seeping, ya know what I mean.

[This message has been edited by Cyclephoto (edited 08-04-2001).]

Diesel

08-04-2001, 11:16 AM

Tim, I know what you mean about pans being held on by saftey wire... not a good idea. It's scary to see some of the things being done to comply with the rule but I don't think we should fault the rulebook. I was not a fan of the bellypan rule when first reading about it at the beginning of the '99 season but I understood it's purpose. Before I started racing I used to come to WERA Vintage events to check out the scene. At the time I knew nothing of race preparing a bike yet even then I was shocked at the condition of some of the bikes let onto the track. I wondered what the hell Tech was for if they obviously didn't look at the bikes closely enough. Now I see what Tech is in for every race weekend. Those guys have a tough job trying to get bikes inspected so everyone can make their practice session and race. To thoroughly inspect every bike and go as far as hot teching the bikes will become very time consuming not to mention that they can't possibly catch every little thing that may be wrong with a bike. But I'm sure if the racers are willing to pay a higher entrance fee, more tech officials could be hired. This, however, can also deter how many entrants decide to participate in a WERA Vintage event.

Again, we as racers have the responsibility of building our bikes to the highest standards possible yet what I see all too often is that something on a bike is half-assed or slapped together in hopes that it'll elude the guys at tech. Shouldn't the real concern be that of "How am I endangering my fellow racers by cutting corners? If another racer is injured because of my carelessness, would he/she understand that it was because I didn't have the time or motivation to prepare my bike properly?"

I don't mean to be a tyrant nor am I trying to point fingers at anyone. I can't tell you stories of "how it was done in the old days" or "we never had a reason to do that back in my day". Unfortunately I didn't start racing until three years ago at the age of 35. I regret having waited this long because vintage motorcycles and vintage motorcycle racing is a major part of my life. A day NEVER goes by that I don't think about ways of improving my bike or my riding skills. I spend at least a couple of hours a day going over my bike and/or watching videos of past WERA Vintage events. I refuse to let anything endanger WERA Vintage or the classes I can run my beloved bike in. Sure there are other race organizations and other bikes that can be raced but quite frankly, it wouldn't be the same showing up at someone elses family reunion. I'm not willing to lose my WERA Vintage family because of something like this bellypan rule or any other issue that may come along.

Diesel

08-04-2001, 11:20 AM

Originally posted by Cyclephoto:
... we will need to have an organized effort at tech to help people design and build safe belly pans...

I'll be more than willing to help out.

Cyclephoto

08-04-2001, 12:28 PM

Originally posted by Diesel:
I'll be more than willing to help out.

I think that raceday tech must have the responsibility, within the rules and guidelines given to us by WERA, to encourage racers to prepare their machines in the safest posibile manner. Tech would be the appropriate place to determine safe belly pan design and construction.

I would like to see us continue to provide a Vintage tech line, with Vintage rider assistance, and make an effort to tighten up some of these belly pans. Can we require that all pans be fastened to the bike w/o the use of saftey wire or zip ties?

Diesel

08-04-2001, 01:10 PM

Originally posted by Cyclephoto:
I would like to see us continue to provide a Vintage tech line, with Vintage rider assistance, and make an effort to tighten up some of these belly pans. Can we require that all pans be fastened to the bike w/o the use of saftey wire or zip ties?

Sure. Hardware and home improvement stores have all kinds of fasteners, straps and binders that can be used to mount a pan. Saftey wire or zip ties are not an option and should only be used to prevent bolts/nuts from loosening or strapping wiring harnesses and tubing. I learned that after losing a number plate at RR because of using zipties to mount it.

I'll be at your disposal at VIR if you could use another person to help out at tech.

VINTAGE777

08-04-2001, 07:50 PM

I agree with what you guys are saying,I am in favor of the bellypan rule,but securing one with safety wire is not such a bad thing depending on how you do it and what size wire you use,i guess what i am trying to say is just because its safety wired on,doesn't mean its thrown togeather,I'm rather proud of my bellypan http://www.wera.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Diesel

08-05-2001, 02:01 AM

Originally posted by VINTAGE777:
... just because its safety wired on,doesn't mean its thrown togeather,I'm rather proud of my bellypan http://www.wera.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Dude!! I didn't know you used saftywire!! I guess we may no longer be able to pit with each other. http://www.wera.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

BTW - I finally found the reason for my bikes lousy handling this season. My swingarm was bent! I replaced it with the one from last years bike and the measurements are finally where they should be. I can't wait to take her out on the track. With the "new" swingarm and frame mods she should handle as well if not better than last years bike.

Cyclephoto

08-05-2001, 10:17 AM

Originally posted by VINTAGE777:
I agree with what you guys are saying,I am in favor of the bellypan rule,but securing one with safety wire is not such a bad thing

I think the belly pan "rule" ranks up their with the 55mph speed limit "rule" and the "rule" in some states that makes it illegal to engage in oral sex, with your wife.
Having said that, I want to race, and I generally follow the rules, (not always, see last rule).
I will seek advice from Rick Breckon, as to what we at tech can require to stop, or limit the use of safety wire and zip ties to secure belly pans.
Sorry Eric, but we can't be expected at tech to decide when safety wire is good or bad. This is another instance of one "rule" for all.

Diesel

08-05-2001, 12:24 PM

Originally posted by Cyclephoto:
... and the "rule" in some states that makes it illegal to engage in oral sex, with your wife.

You dog, you. How's it feel to be a "criminal"? http://www.wera.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Anyway, maybe safetywire has been used in the past and may still be used in the future. But, please, if you're going to use it, make sure you double or even triple it up and that more than four sections of the pan are strapped to the frame or motor. I saw one pan with only three mounting points and the front part was being held on with only one strand of light guage wire. If that one strand happens to snap, the front of the pan would drop and possibly tuck under the bike. I'm sure it would cause at least one person to crash.

Cyclephoto

08-05-2001, 02:35 PM

Originally posted by Diesel:
I'm sure it would cause at least one person to crash.

[/B]
As we say in motorcycle racing; it's not if your going to crash, it's when.

Most racebike prep has been to take stuff off and secure whats left.

Now that were asking people to self design and attach a large piece of metal under their machines; someones belly pan is going to come off.

Each racer, and also WERA, (because they are the ones who are saying they have to have one to race) are responsible, to see that this happens as little as possible.

Vintage tech, with direction from WERA, needs to have the final say as to whats, considered safe. That information needs to be passed on to the riders, so that they build something we can allow on the track.

VINTAGE777

08-05-2001, 07:40 PM

Thats ok guys I'm not complaining,its no big deal to make brackets,I'll do whatever is the safest,I do see the point,i just didnt want people to think just because i used safety to hold my pan on that it was thrown togeather just to pass tech.

Diesel

08-05-2001, 08:22 PM

Originally posted by VINTAGE777:
... i just didnt want people to think just because i used safety to hold my pan on that it was thrown togeather just to pass tech.

Yo Mang. Those people who know you and have seen you work on your bike KNOW how much pride you have in it. Doing things half-assed isn't your way.

I think a large portion of the problem is that we sometimes end up perpetuating bad habits or we pass them on to other racers. I think it's our responsibility to help "police" ourselves and offer each other constructive criticism. I'm sure many people have started using safetywire for securing bellypans because "'John Doe' did it and he's been racing for years and won championships. If it's good enough for him, it should work for me".

Wine Slut

08-05-2001, 08:32 PM

[I'm sure many people have started using safetywire for securing bellypans because "'John Doe' did it and he's been racing for years and won championships. If it's good enough for him, it should work for me".[/B][/QUOTE]Yikes!! That sounds like me. I'll try to get something better for vir.

Diesel

08-05-2001, 08:49 PM

Originally posted by Cyclephoto:
Now that were asking people to self design and attach a large piece of metal under their machines; someones belly pan is going to come off.

First off, I'm not a fan of the turkey pan and no... I don't think it's a clever idea. It's a cop-out to get through tech and may eventually be the reason for even more specific and complicated rules governing the bellypan issue. Isn't that why rules, laws and regulations get more complicated? To patch up the "loop-holes" that some people take advantage of?

Let's look at the modern bikes. How often do their fairing lowers or pans come off? (I said PANS, not PANTS http://www.wera.com/ubb/smile.gif ) How many of those aftermarket fairings are sold with zipties or safetywire for mounting? Maybe that should give us an idea that zt's and sw aren't such a good idea. Attaching things to a motorcycle, like bodywork, is not a new idea therefore the methods in ways of mounting them is not undiscovered territory. All we have to do is copy the methods that have worked for decades.

Cyclephoto

08-05-2001, 09:01 PM

Yikes!! That sounds like me. I'll try to get something better for vir.

[/B][/QUOTE]
Mr. Morrow, please get me a list of the names of your band members, so I can get them comp passes at the VIR gate. I understand they might have a schedule conflict, if they can make it, cool, if they can't thats fine too. Please remember to bring your horn, for the National Anthem.
Mark Mitchell cyclephoto@aol.com

Wine Slut

08-06-2001, 12:20 AM

What about a "North vs South" race or championship next year? Maybe Steve-O's and Moto Europa could combine forces and sponsor one series instead of two seperate ones. Summit, Savanah and VIR (Kershaw too?) would make a nice little series without too much travel for both parties. Take the top 3,5 or what-ever finishers in each class and put their points into "team points". Find some type of civil war memorebelia to turn into a trophy. Just a thought.....

YamahaRick

08-06-2001, 11:21 AM

Originally posted by rzracer39:
What about a "North vs South" race or championship next year? Maybe Steve-O's and Moto Europa could combine forces and sponsor one series instead of two seperate ones. Summit, Savanah and VIR (Kershaw too?) would make a nice little series without too much travel for both parties. Take the top 3,5 or what-ever finishers in each class and put their points into "team points". Find some type of civil war memorebelia to turn into a trophy. Just a thought.....

Mark, you'd be a double agent ... being from NY State and all ... how can we trust you? ;-)

Wine Slut

08-06-2001, 12:24 PM

Originally posted by YamahaRick:
Mark, you'd be a double agent ... being from NY State and all ... how can we trust you? ;-)
"If there were any logic to the english language, trust would be a four letter word" C'mon Rick, you know I LOVE sweet tea!

Diesel

08-06-2001, 11:17 PM

Originally posted by rzracer39:
Mark, you'd be a double agent ... being from NY State and all ... how can we trust you?

Yea, as a self proclaimed (and proud) Bostonian, I think there'd be too many doubts as to loyalty with some of us "Damned Yankees" (Northerners who came to the South and stayed). We would be charged for treason against the Confederacy. That's not to say that the North would win again. In fact all the smart, talented and commited Northern racers moved to the South were racing is the most competitive and more than just a seasonal past-time as an alternative to hockey. It's just that some of us never developed a taste for that syrupy crap called "swayt tay" (a sure sign of Northern agression). http://www.wera.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Stick that in yo' yankee doodle dandy.

Tri-309

08-07-2001, 12:51 AM

Originally posted by Diesel:
Yea, as a self proclaimed (and proud) Bostonian, I think there'd be too many doubts as to loyalty with some of us "Damned Yankees" (Northerners who came to the South and stayed). We would be charged for treason against the Confederacy. That's not to say that the North would win again. In fact all the smart, talented and commited Northern racers moved to the South were racing is the most competitive and more than just a seasonal past-time as an alternative to hockey. It's just that some of us never developed a taste for that syrupy crap called "swayt tay" (a sure sign of Northern agression). http://www.wera.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Stick that in yo' yankee doodle dandy. WELL SAID BROTHER , COMING FROM THIS VERMONT TRANSPLANT.

Cyclephoto

08-07-2001, 08:53 AM

Originally posted by rzracer39:
[B]What about a "North vs South" race or championship next year? Maybe Steve-O's and Moto Europa could combine forces and sponsor one series instead of two seperate ones. B]

Ya'll are getting pretty carried away, with this North/South thang. For a moment I thought I was on the WERA General bulletin board, with the "kids". http://www.wera.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Mark, the idea of the regional Championships should stay in place so that folks that can't race all around the country, (like some two stroke rider I know) can race for a first place in their region.

That's one of the reasons I give additional points to riders who compete in all the races,to give them some help from the "stars" who show up for the double points events.

I enjoy watching you ride, win races and Championships; however we need to have variety to keep it interesting.

Anyway, it seems to me that the South has been invaded again!

[This message has been edited by Cyclephoto (edited 08-07-2001).]

Cyclephoto

08-07-2001, 08:55 PM

Originally posted by Cyclephoto:
I will seek advice from Rick Breckon, as to what we at tech can require to stop, or limit the use of safety wire and zip ties to secure belly pans.

[/B]
I have been in contact with WERA Vintage, Ed Bargy and Tony Pentacost to ask them to give me some direction as to the suitability of using zip ties and safety wire to mount belly pans.

As you know Ed is the closest thing we have to a Safety Director in WERA. He allows the use of safety wire, and zip ties, as long as its a "workmanship" manner; which Ed admits, is a vague description. Tony has also been allowing their use.

Ed also said that yes, they have had some pans falling off. Ed thinks that it would be a very good idea for all the tech people to improve belly pan design and attachment.
Neither Ed or Tony is thrilled with the use of zip ties and safety wire, however it was deemed a nessary evil in order to comply with the WERA rule and get bikes on the track. Ed stated he would like to see them fastened to the bike with nuts and bolts in some manner. He will be looking at them at GNF tech.

Unlike other bike preparation issues, like the rule that remote rear shock resevoirs need to be hard mounted, WERA has given no directions as to safe belly pan mounting.

Rick Breckon has been helping his racers out with very well engineered belly pan designs, (i am able to use a floor jack under my pan to raise my front off the ground). Rick is also conserned with some of the stuff on the track.

So, at this time tech cannot outlaw safety wire and zip ties, but we should reject some of what we feel is dangerous.

Wine Slut

08-08-2001, 03:04 PM

I agree with you about the regionals staying in place, but the "blue vs. grey" idea was intended not for personal glory,(I've had plenty) but a way to get more of a "Team" mentality going. If we were to do it, the trophy wouldn't be given to an individual, but to the winning "team". I think we would see people working really hard to help their "team-mates" get to the track. The North, with your superior grid sizes, would have an advantage over the "smaller"(yet talent rich) southerners. The whole thing would be more about bragging rights than who's the fastest. Anyway, it was just a thought....

Greg Gabis

08-08-2001, 03:08 PM

Originally posted by rzracer39:
<ship>
The North, with your superior grid sizes, <Snip>....

Uh, what "North" would that be? Definitely not North Central!

Wine Slut

08-08-2001, 03:38 PM

Originally posted by Greg Gabis:
Uh, what "North" would that be? Definitely not North Central!

I was thinking specifically of mid-atl. of course you guys would be on "their" side. (our grids in the se aren't that big either...)

Cyclephoto

08-09-2001, 07:56 AM

Originally posted by rzracer39:
[B]I agree with you about the regionals staying in place, but the "blue vs. grey" idea was intended not for personal glory
B]

Change is the only constant.
I hope that whatever the WERA motorcycle racing vintage program is in the future, it will keep, and strenghten the regional Championships that have been started in the last few years.
The Mid Atlantic, South East and RD series', have generated alot of sponsor interest and money into the Vintage program (please see the growing list of sponsors on the WERA Vintage web site).
The North vs. South "Team Challange" could be another invigorating Vintage event that would be awarded at the GNF.
These "events" don't invent themselves. The Vintage Series racers have "thought it up and done it".

Having WERA Vintage Inc. as a seperate administrator of the Vintage program for WERA been of great value. It would have been alot harder to develop the various racing series' and sponsors without them.
The Vintage program has always had (and needed) independant leadership, from the 80's with Beno Rhodi, and Jesse Morris, to the present leadership of Rick and Lynne.

WERA Motorcycle racing has a full plate with modern racing and event planning. They cannot afford us the time, to assist us with the things we want to do.

What ever the future brings, we need to keep the Vintage group involved together, to insure our racing future.

[This message has been edited by Cyclephoto (edited 08-09-2001).]

lightsmith

08-10-2001, 01:08 PM

WERA Vintage has great potential. I think the belly pan thing is a benefit. Caught napping last year, I had to mount a turkey pan on my Ascot last year at Summit. After its shape was finalized by the racing surface, I went home and used it as a form for the fiberglass final product. It's ugly, but doesn't drag.

The "other vintage group" is woefully behind the times. Not requiring belly pans on bikes that leak on a good day is just the tip. They also don't allow Water Wetter or Evans NPG. I'd race my new (liquid cooled) 500 single in their Sound of Singles class if I could run NPG. I can't, so I won't. Maybe they want to keep their right to "AHRMA ALL" the track at every outing.

WERA should have a singles only class (like CCS Supersingles), but that's just my opinion.

Wine Slut

08-10-2001, 02:33 PM

With all of this talk of letting new bikes into v4/5/6, I think its time we let clubman bikes run unrestricted again in v5. The competition and grid sizes were better when we did. I know someone will bring up Frank Strohman and his 85hp ex, but I was the guy that finished 2nd or 3rd to frank all those years. Chasing his rocketship around the track all the time pushed me to a different level. There were always 3 or 4 bikes in the lead group battling. I know there are alot of gs/ex guys out there that would love to run v5 but can't because of a ported head or 20 cc's extra displacement.

Cyclephoto

08-10-2001, 03:17 PM

I'm glad to see we are "flaming" on this topic.
With greater participation, we could have an interactive news letter here.

Wine Slut

08-10-2001, 03:31 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cyclephoto:
[B]I'm glad to see we are "flaming" on this topic.
Who are you calling a FLAMER?!?

Cyclephoto

08-10-2001, 05:19 PM

Originally posted by rzracer39:

Who are you calling a FLAMER?!?

[/B]
flame\n 1:the glowing gaseous part of a fire 2: a state of blazing combustion 3: a flamelike condition 4: burning zeal or passion-

Nuff said!!

Cyclephoto

08-10-2001, 05:23 PM

Originally posted by rzracer39:
Who are you calling a FLAMER?!?

[/B]

flame\n 1: the glowing gaseous part of a fire 2: a state of blazing combustion 3: a flamelike condition 4: burning zeal or passion-

nuff said!!

Diesel

08-10-2001, 07:26 PM

Originally posted by rzracer39:

Who are you calling a FLAMER?!?

I think you should be more concerned with the fact that you are satisfied with only "2-strokes". http://www.wera.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Wine Slut

08-10-2001, 07:44 PM

Originally posted by Diesel:
I think you should be more concerned with the fact that you are satisfied with only "2-strokes". http://www.wera.com/ubb/biggrin.gif
Its all about efficiancy. I get the same job done with 1/2 the work!!!

Cyclephoto

08-15-2001, 10:18 PM

[/B][/QUOTE]
WERA Vintage had 85 entries at Putnam. That's an improvement!
I'll be interested to see how many entries we get at VIR.
I've got a couple of kegs on ice!

Diesel

08-15-2001, 10:48 PM

Originally posted by Cyclephoto:

I've got a couple of kegs on ice!

Mark... I see you're not trying TOO hard to promote the event. You didn't mention the topless dancers and a Hooters umbrella girl for every racer on the grid.

Cyclephoto

08-16-2001, 09:20 AM

Originally posted by Diesel:
Mark... I see you're not trying TOO hard to promote the event. You didn't mention the topless dancers and a Hooters umbrella girl for every racer on the grid.

I like your thinking, Yens!!
We'll do whatever it takes to get you south eastern racers up here, north of peach country.
VIR is going to be the premier track in the mid atlantic for some time. I would like to contact the National Weather service, to get a history of snow events in southern Virginia. I think it would not be a great risk to schedule the GNF at VIR.
But being a Vermonter, I'm probably less conserned with racing in 40 degree temperatures.

Diesel

08-16-2001, 09:44 AM

Originally posted by Cyclephoto:
VIR is going to be the premier track in the mid atlantic for some time... I think it would not be a great risk to schedule the GNF at VIR.

We had that discussion on the BBS last October after the GNF. I would definitely be in favor of having the GNF at VIR. I think WERA feels that Autumn weather is a little too unpredictable to risk running the GNF that far north.

Tri-309

08-16-2001, 10:37 PM

I was thinking more like getting you northern racers down in the deep south. we have two or three new tracks in the making. Barbers, North florida motorsports park some place around lakecity and one in LA. All about four hours away.After all I know some of you northern guys travel long distances but just to get gravy points.WEll just wanted to see if that would get any feedback?

Tri-309

08-16-2001, 10:39 PM

Tri-309

08-16-2001, 10:40 PM

boaide

08-19-2001, 07:23 PM

I know some of you northern guys travel long distances but just to get gravy points. [/B]

Does "northern" include Maryland or just north of the Mason-Dixon Line? Just trying to understand if I'm being picked on. LOL

Fred

Zooke158

08-22-2001, 10:40 PM

I have pretty much read all the posts and am happy to be here. Actually heard about the list from the VRRA Forum.

Since Mid-Ohio and my crash and life flight out to Cleveland Hospital I have not been racing much but have been on me street bike some recently.

As for belly pans. I am for them and much to you surprise: since some of us who do AHRMA have been showing up at the track, the cheif Scrutineer Gordon Smith has told me that maybe in two years or less AHRMA will be requiring belly pans as well. It is the saftey issue of the present and future. We in WERA Vintage have proven it can be done and tastefully. We may gripe but we put much more work in the bikes than it take to make a belly pan.

As for entries...I think we need and entry level class in WERA Vintage like the Historic Production Class in AHRMA. Ment of amateur class riders and beginners to try out the sport. It should be monitored extremely close like AHRMA does. If a rider in this class shows exteme dominance he is bumped out even during the season to a faster class.

We have no entry level class. Formula RD I believe was for this reason but now it is just a Formula 500 class with just RDs in it.

We will never get an new riders if we have no place for them to race. Most new riders are not like me and willing to take years of getting their buts kicked to move up into the top ten.

Bikes (Vintage) have now become more competitive than they were when we used to watch them race. A 48HP CB 350 was unheard of back then.

Bumping up is nice, it gives us more races. But for me it is discouraging to see the same bikes in three different classes racing though they get points for only two and not the third (according to the rule book).

Diesel

08-22-2001, 11:31 PM

Originally posted by Zooke158:
Since Mid-Ohio and my crash and life flight out to Cleveland Hospital I have not been racing much but have been on me street bike some recently.

Damn Eric, I was wondering where you've been!! I take it that the crash was pretty nasty. You alright for the most part?

Jens
#415

Zooke158

08-22-2001, 11:57 PM

Thanks for the concern. This one threw me for a loop. Was in the hospital for two days for them to x-ray and look for broken bones and such. They thought I may have a fractured neck. But not so and I got out at 10:30 pm on Monday night and drove home 700 miles. Well, I did drive a mile away from the hospital and get a hotel and then drive home.

Whole left side was a big blue bruse from the shoulder down and now I may need a third operation on the shoulder as my only ligament holding down the collar bone is gone. Hurts like HE!!.

The bike after it highsided me never got to flip as it got caught in David Keeleys Honda and he rather graciously drug it off the track for me. The bike had a bent handlebar and scuffed silencer is all.

But I am alive and wanting to race again. I have another helmet and gloves and boots but my leathers are in 7 peices. Not worth sewing together.

Ken came up to see me a few weeks ago and now I hear he is messed up but home with a compression fracture to his vertabrae.

There were 44 crashes at Mid-Ohio and 4 life flights. Not a good weekend.

Cyclephoto

08-23-2001, 08:01 AM

Originally posted by Zooke158:
Thanks for the concern. There were 44 crashes at Mid-Ohio and 4 life flights. Not a good weekend.

Eric, I am so sorry to hear about your crash. I had no idea this had happened to you. I don't know if I just had my head up my ass, and didn't hear the news, or if we lost track of people due to the number of crashes.
You seem in the usual good spirits. Hope to see you soon.

Mark Mitchell

schwantzmobile

08-23-2001, 11:42 AM

Originally posted by Zooke158:
There were 44 crashes at Mid-Ohio and 4 life flights. Not a good weekend.[/B]

You gotta be kid'n...44!!! that's got to be a record. What caused that many?...weather?...snipers?

Zooke158

08-24-2001, 09:10 AM

You gotta be kid'n...44!!! that's got to be a record. What caused that
many?...weather?...snipers? http://www.wera.com/ubb/eek.gif

Snipers. Never thought of that. Maybe I didn't lose the backend and highside. I'm going out to my bike to have a better look and that puncture in my shoulder I don't know where that came from. http://www.wera.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

Really, Dave Rosno was riding my other T500, the one Joey rides and was up into 4th. You could throw a blanket over the guys. Then Spargo got caught in a lapper and he drifter over and hit Spargos brake lever, first red flagg and then a restart. the kept us in the hot pits so long that Dave began to protest and demanded a new hot lap. They wouldn't do it so he went back to my pit area and refused to race. I went back out and lost it in turn 9 on accleration less then half a lap on the restart. Cold tires!

But this is what I have put together from spectators my friends and the video and pics I have of the accident. I only remember putting on my leathers and then the hospital ceiling. 7 hours missing somewhere.

boaide

08-24-2001, 09:23 AM

Eric, finally figured out who you are. Pulaski, Va. was a giveaway. Sorry to hear about the problems at mid-Ohio. Should have figured something was up when you didn't show at VIR.

Ciao,

Fred

FED34FIRE

08-24-2001, 03:29 PM

As for entries...I think we need and entry level class in WERA Vintage like the Historic Production Class in AHRMA. Ment of amateur class riders and beginners to try out the sport. It should be monitored extremely close like AHRMA does. If a rider in this class shows exteme dominance he is bumped out even during the season to a faster class.

We have no entry level class. Formula RD I believe was for this reason but now it is just a Formula 500 class with just RDs in it.

We will never get an new riders if we have no place for them to race. Most new riders are not like me and willing to take years of getting their buts kicked to move up into the top ten.

I agree. This is just an opion. We need a Vintage Rookie or Vintage Provisional Novice Race. Let alone the problems I've had with getting my bike sorted this season and the fact that I've never riden any of these tracks. "I'm slow and I will be slow for a few more weekends". It just sometimes seems like I'm the only Provisional Novice out there in Vintage. My first three weekends have been a blast but, I'm not fast enough yet to compete with you guys. I don't care about getting my butt kicked or winning a trophy. I want to learn how to be the best Roadracer I can be, have fun, and, try to come home in one piece on "most weekends". It's kinda hard to concentrate on your game when your constanly being passed and there's no other newbies out there to race against. I think a Rookie Vintage race and the riders option to step up a class on a weekend would get alot more racers started. I don't think it matters what bikes run due to the fact that only a handful of riders are actually capable of flying on there first few weekends and that Novices can't run anything over a 750. I've been around this sport most of my life and everyone I know seems to recommend The WERA Vintage Series as the beat place to start. Please, Don't get me wrong. I think WERA does and is doing a great job. I've learned alot from watching from last place. I just don't think everybody else is as patient as I am and as fortunate as I have been to be able to race with so many talented riders. I feel I would learn alot more if I could run with other riders who are also just getting started. There's alot of nice old bikes sitting in garages out there. I think it would work.

Just an opinon.

FED34FIRE

08-24-2001, 03:45 PM

FED34FIRE

08-28-2001, 03:17 PM

recommend The WERA Vintage Series as the beat place to start.

typo... That's 'best' not beat. Didn't want anybody to take that the wrong way.

Rain Director

08-28-2001, 08:09 PM

Sorry, guys, I've been riding herd on "the kids" in the General section of the BBS since Sean seems to have taken a vacation. I've read some related stuff on The Thumpers only thread and the Old Race bikes thread. SURPRISE! Some one here has opened up the idea of restructuring WERA Vintage classes (V4, V5, V6, V7!) Good stuff, everyone.

I can't guess why the "smaller" vintage classes are that way. Mark may have hit it when he said the costs of running the older bikes are taking a toll on the number of entries. I thought Rick/Lynne got it right with the "Classic" classes, but they are getting a bit thin on the grids. Remember, I'm talking about Summit here, home of the largest Vintage grids.

Maybe the belly-pan rule has something to do with it. I'm not a tech-nut. Whatever you do to get on the track is fine with me; I've seen and read here of some very good bellypans that the Vintage folks have come up with. Mark asked me for my input on number of mounting points and construction. To paraphrase a former Supreme Court Justice's comment on pornography: I can't define what makes a good belly pan but I know one when I see one. http://www.wera.com/ubb/smile.gif

The thought of V4,5 and 6 going to Super-Duper vintage and being displacement-driven for older "modern" bikes has some merit, but what do you do with the present V4 and V5 machines? PI them to V3? Lump the present and orginal V4 and V5 machines into one class and run seperate 600/750/open classes? Have seperate classes for them in V7 Light (600s) and V7 Heavy (750/open)? Open V5 to Thumpers and the the EX/GS bikes regardless of age or state of build?

I'm not against running new Vintage classes, but (dare I say it?) "FIND ME THE TIME IN THE RACEDAY." Don't think for one minute that the solos will be axed for a couple of new Vintage races. Heck, I can't get Sean to dump them for one weekend to run a 2-hour at Summit. Why? M-O-N-E-Y. Those almost 100 Solo enties - more than 120 at Summit - speak louder that 20-30 more entries into a new Vintage class or 45 entries in a 2 hour endurance.

I'm willing to discuss this with you guys, as long as I'm not stepping on anyone's toes, be they Mark M's, Sean's, Rick/Lynne's or The Boss Lady's. Maybe at the GNF?

[This message has been edited by Rain Director (edited 08-28-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Rain Director (edited 08-28-2001).]

boaide

08-28-2001, 09:48 PM

Mark may have hit it when he said the costs of running the older bikes are taking a toll on the number of entries.
[This message has been edited by Rain Director (edited 08-28-2001).][/B]

Yes, I would love to run classic but a Ducati, Aermacchi/Harley, Benelli, Motobi, MV-Agusta is hard to keep on the track. Don't know, but I figure Manxs, Velocettes and Gold Stars are expensive to maintain too. Mind you, I have a home in Italy and am there 30% of the time. Still the parts are super expensive even there. Recently got a quote in Italy for a new Menani 210mm 4LS drum brake, $1,400!!!!

I do have a winter plan however. Looking at the rule book I see you can run a DS-7 (with maximum 30mm carbs) in classic middleweight. I happen to have a street DS-7 in the garage and a set of steel sleeved DS-7 cylinders ported like my TD-3's chrome bores and I've just cut a new pair of DS-7 pistons to replicate the TD-3 pistons. Do I really need them as spares for the TD-3? Hmmm, I have a welder to do the necessary frame stiffing and rear sub-frame work. If I could only make pretty welds.

Maybe I'll add at at least one bike to the classic class next year.

Ciao,

Fred

Diesel

08-29-2001, 01:48 PM

Originally posted by boaide:

Maybe I'll add at at least one bike to the classic class next year.

All it takes is "one more". I hope you will come to CMW, it's a class that needs more entries. Besides, you won't be alone with a 2-smoker. Right Tom? As far as CLW is concerned, there will be three more bikes that I know of coming to the grids. They're all Honda 160/175's and I hope they will show how much fun and affordable this class can be.

boaide

08-29-2001, 08:11 PM

Originally posted by Diesel:
All it takes is "one more".

The more I think about it the more it seems attractive and a fun project.

Ciao,

Fred

Cyclephoto

08-29-2001, 09:27 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rain Director:

I'm willing to discuss this with you guys, as long as I'm not stepping on anyone's toes, be they Mark M's, Sean's, Rick/Lynne's or The Boss Lady's. Maybe at the GNF?

QUOTE]
George, we are putting together a "Vintage rules Committee" to tweak the classes for 2002 and beyond. We need some Super Vintage ideas for V5 and V6.
The Committee will be comprised of the Vintage regional race directors, and invited "members at large". I would like to include you as a member of the Vintage rules committee.
We are planning to have our first meeting after Wednesdays practice at the GNF.
Mark Mitchell

Rain Director

09-03-2001, 11:10 AM

Sure thing. I'll be the one with the wacko ideas.

Wine Slut

09-03-2001, 06:55 PM

Originally posted by Rain Director:
Sure thing. I'll be the one with the wacko ideas.

Cool, then I won't be the only one.....

Cyclephoto

09-04-2001, 09:57 AM

Originally posted by Rain Director:
Sure thing. I'll be the one with the wacko ideas.
We have formed a "Vintage" rules committee for the year 2002 and beyond, (Mark Mitchell, John Early, Bucky Sexton, Steve Stasser, Rick Breckon, George Moode, Dale Burroughs and Lyn Garland). There will be a meeting at the track on Wednesday, after GNF practice. We will announce the location some time during the day.

All Vintage riders are welcome to meet with us. We will have a specific agenda to explore slight changes in some of our classes and rules. We feel that the overall class structure developed by WERA Vintage is very sound, so we don't see any huge changes. Time will be made available for discussion of additional ideas. One objective is to think about the "Super Vintage" classes, and the possibility of a V7 class.
Please contact anyone, of the rules committee to have an idea included on the agenda.

[This message has been edited by Cyclephoto (edited 09-04-2001).]

EMathy

09-13-2001, 10:16 AM

Hi all!

I've just wandered over into the Vintage area for the first time and read this thread. Imagine my suprise on finding fellow GSPosse cohorts Pam, Greg and the Lizard King here. Well, OK, I expected to find Lizard w/his GS450 over here.

I dig what everyone is saying...you Vintage folks sure do keep things less ornery than the other crew. http://www.wera.com/ubb/wink.gif

Anyways...I'm an utter nebie/FNG. Shit, I haven't even run a race yet. I have, however, spent the past year studying road racing. I've gone over rulebooks for WSMC, AFN, CCS, WERA, AHRMA and CRA. It's been both fun and enducational.

Re: getting more "modern" bikes into vintage. I'd love to lay my hands on a late 80's 600 or 750 and take it out racing. That'd be fun as all get out. The AFM handles this is a pretty simple manner. They just have a "Super Dinosaur" class. It's defined as follows:

"Super Dinosaur: For 1985 and earlier motorcycles, using DOT tires."

link: http://www.afmracing.org/Rulebook/Rb_ch06.html

I've always liked that. It's also a really fun class to watch race.

WSMC has "Vintage 'Dinosaur' Classes":

Vintage Heavyweight 651 - Open cc, 1985 year model and older production

Vintage Lightweight 0 - 650cc, 1985 year model and older production

link: http://www.race-wsmc.com/rulebook.htm#1999WSMC%20RACING%20CLASSES (http://www.race-wsmc.com/rulebook.htm#1999)

Which, in retrospect, is even better than the AFM. http://www.wera.com/ubb/smile.gif

This random babbling brought to you sans caffeine,
- Erik

[This message has been edited by EMathy (edited 09-13-2001).]

796

10-08-2001, 07:38 PM

Originally posted by rzracer39:
With all of this talk of letting new bikes into v4/5/6, I think its time we let clubman bikes run unrestricted again in v5. The competition and grid sizes were better when we did. I know someone will bring up Frank Strohman and his 85hp ex, but I was the guy that finished 2nd or 3rd to frank all those years. Chasing his rocketship around the track all the time pushed me to a different level. There were always 3 or 4 bikes in the lead group battling. I know there are alot of gs/ex guys out there that would love to run v5 but can't because of a ported head or 20 cc's extra displacement.
I know this was mentioned a few times in this post, but I have get my two cents in. Let's allow Clubman legal EXs/GSs in V5. It will help grid size and give the EXs/GSs something to race on Saturday. Also, I thought I read that there is going to be a meeting for next year's Vintage rules at the GNF. When and where is this? Will the EX/GS question in V5 be a topic?
Thanks.

Don_728

10-09-2001, 01:15 AM

Originally posted by FZRDUDE:

1)We need a Vintage Rookie or Vintage Provisional Novice Race.
Test
2)It just sometimes seems like I'm the only Provisional Novice out there in Vintage. My first three weekends have been a blast but, I'm not fast enough yet to compete with you guys.

3)I don't care about getting my butt kicked or winning a trophy. I want to learn how to be the best Roadracer I can be, have fun, and, try to come home in one piece on "most weekends". It's kinda hard to concentrate on your game when your constanly being passed and there's no other newbies out there to race against.

4)I don't think it matters what bikes run due to the fact that only a handful of riders are actually capable of flying on there first few weekends and that Novices can't run anything over a 750.

5)I feel I would learn alot more if I could run with other riders who are also just getting started.

Yeah, I don't know how to do the BOLD stuff so bear with me here http://www.wera.com/ubb/smile.gif

1) I agree to a point, what about a novice class in vintage? Would it be less intimidating for the rider starting out? You would be running with the same bikes though.

2)See number 3) getting your butt kicked is the first step in becoming a better racer. You will get faster, everyone always does. Its too long a winter to not just think and visualize all the tracks you've been to, go over every corner what you are doing etc...

3) Its hard to not get mad at yourself when you are constantly passed, but this happens to everyone. Last year at the GNF (my first time) I was out for the practive day with the vintage 1 -4 guys to learn the track ( I ride a FZR400) I was scarred sh*tless, I couldn't believe how fast those old piles would pass me in the corners http://www.wera.com/ubb/biggrin.gif When I started working on what I was doing and where I could go faster, and stopped worring about everyone else, it really started to come together. Oh and a FYI if you are going to be at Atlanta, don't eat before you go on the track the first time; comming down the hill for the first time is always "fun" http://www.wera.com/ubb/eek.gif

4) You can http://www.wera.com/ubb/smile.gif There is no modern class for a modern 1000 for novices, but a V6 bike is legal for B superbike and Formula 1 and HW solo -- skip to the vintage rules and V6 gets you a GSXR1100 or an old FZR1000 http://www.wera.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Whether or not you'd be competetive is a different story.

5) Track time will help with alot of that. Next time you are around come on by the pits and we'll be glad to talk with you and give you some tips, but most of it comes from within http://www.wera.com/ubb/smile.gif Look for the yellow and black bikes with the biohazard logos all over them.
Another good idea is to read the Code books (or read them again if you already have).

Welcome aboard
Don Kinsey
Team Frost
WERA #28 Novice

[This message has been edited by Don_728 (edited 10-10-2001).]

GypsyRacing

10-09-2001, 10:52 PM

I am very interested in hearing about revisions for 2002 for V5, V6, V+. With the popularity of the SV in D-super the FZR numbers are dwindeling. It is a shame that an 88-90 400 FZR has no place in vintage.....I thought about a V6 race at Roebling last month, but those Liter bikes come by too fast on the straights.

My FZR is a blast to ride, and they are selling for really cheap these days.......because they can not stay with an SV, and EVERONE wants an SV.

The FZR's are a great entry level race bikes. I just want others to dice with, without building a granade to chase the folks in D-super.

I agree that there needs to be a class for the older 600's and 750's too! Great opportunities here, I hope Vintage stays with WERA.....I love walking the pits and watching the older bikes race!

PS......you guys have awesome trophies!

Dennis
Gypsy Racing
Novice #357

Cyclephoto

10-10-2001, 11:57 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by GypsyRacing:
[B]I am very interested in hearing about revisions for 2002 for V5, V6, V+. With the popularity of the SV in D-super the FZR numbers are dwindeling. It is a shame that an 88-90 400 FZR has no place in vintage.....

Dennis, the WERA Vintage rules committee is very interested in making a place for the bikes you mention in our Super Vintage classes. The rules committee will have their first meeting at the GNF, this month. I have already approached WERA regarding a V7 class on Sundays next year. We feel that with an additional class, we can organize V5, V6 and V7 into a killer Super Vintage program. Thank you for your post. Anyone who has ideas about these classes should e-mail me at: cyclephoto@aol.com or John Early at: j.early@mindspring.com.

FED34FIRE

10-11-2001, 11:43 PM

Originally posted by Don_728:
Yeah, I don't know how to do the BOLD stuff so bear with me here http://www.wera.com/ubb/smile.gif

1) I agree to a point, what about a novice class in vintage? Would it be less intimidating for the rider starting out? You would be running with the same bikes though.

2)See number 3) getting your butt kicked is the first step in becoming a better racer. You will get faster, everyone always does. Its too long a winter to not just think and visualize all the tracks you've been to, go over every corner what you are doing etc...

3) Its hard to not get mad at yourself when you are constantly passed, but this happens to everyone. Last year at the GNF (my first time) I was out for the practive day with the vintage 1 -4 guys to learn the track ( I ride a FZR400) I was scarred sh*tless, I couldn't believe how fast those old piles would pass me in the corners http://www.wera.com/ubb/biggrin.gif When I started working on what I was doing and where I could go faster, and stopped worring about everyone else, it really started to come together. Oh and a FYI if you are going to be at Atlanta, don't eat before you go on the track the first time; comming down the hill for the first time is always "fun" http://www.wera.com/ubb/eek.gif

4) You can http://www.wera.com/ubb/smile.gif There is no modern class for a modern 1000 for novices, but a V6 bike is legal for B superbike and Formula 1 and HW solo -- skip to the vintage rules and V6 gets you a GSXR1100 or an old FZR1000 http://www.wera.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Whether or not you'd be competetive is a different story.

5) Track time will help with alot of that. Next time you are around come on by the pits and we'll be glad to talk with you and give you some tips, but most of it comes from within http://www.wera.com/ubb/smile.gif Look for the yellow and black bikes with the biohazard logos all over them.
Another good idea is to read the Code books (or read them again if you already have).

Welcome aboard
Don Kinsey
Team Frost
WERA #28 Novice

[This message has been edited by Don_728 (edited 10-10-2001).]

Thanks Don. I really appreciate the positive feedback. I was just wondering if I was in over my head. Guys in my class(V5)can really move. I thought maybe a newbie class would help. Having problems judging my entrance speeds. Either scrub off too much or brake too deep. Hopefully Dirt bike for the winter, hit as many track days and races that I can next season. Code books are great. Found the Ed Bargy book the most useful. Thanks again and see you next season. Good luck at the GNF.

Cyclephoto

11-13-2001, 09:57 PM

Originally posted by Cyclephoto:
Anyone who has ideas about these classes should e-mail me at: cyclephoto@aol.com or John Early at: rx49@nc.rr.com.[/B]

I started this thread some time in August of 2001. I was aware that a change in the leadership of WERA Vintage was comming.

I am quite happy to become the Coordinator of a sport that requires, as far as I'm conserned no equal in balls and self relience. I appreciate both qualities, and the "colorful characters" who have them.

I have established a "Rules Committee" of some of the most experienced and knowlegable members. The Committee members may change from year to year as people express an interest in becoming involved. (it can be a thankless job).

All the ideas for rule changes are appreciated. We ask you to please submit your ideas to the Regional Directors, or myself directly, via snale mail or E-mail. We hope you all can appreciate that our organization needs to have a prescribed flow of change; without chaos. If it's something that needs immediate attention, we'll get on it. Some things will have to be tabled for the next years rules.

The WERA BBS does not represent the majority of the membership, that's why we will maintain a WERA Vintage news letter and rule book as the primary source, to get all members current information.

[This message has been edited by Cyclephoto (edited 11-13-2001).]