Track versus Race

[Val]

Getting ready to run Barber tomorrow and I was thinking about pulling off the 002 race and swap them with the 002 R/S due to the weather man calling for a high of 70. I don't burn up the track and ran 47's during my last visit. (Would like to see 45/46 this visit).
Load the bike and forget about it or pull out the spoons?
Will track tires always be superior regardless of air temp or is there a point/temp when street/track rubber becomes just as good or better?
Thanks in advance,
Val

[davetlr]

If you push the limit on street tires, most likely you will fall.

Race tires you can fine tune air pressure for temperature.

I def. would go with the 002's(race)

[(diet)DrThunder]

002 R/S are not street tires, they are specifically engineered for track day duty and street riding...they'd be doing exactly what they are designed to do, and are _more_ than capable of running a 1:45 (or faster) pace. However, I wouldn't be making the change due to anything that involves the 70f temperature forecast.

The 002 race tires you have will be stickier, no matter if it's 50f or 150f outside this weekend. I hope that helps you make your decision. I"m riding my TLR this weekend, and it's got 002 race tires on it. If I had a set of the R/S tires, I'd have no problem running them either.

Oh, and I don't have good info re: pressures on the R/S, but we've been running the 002's a bit lower than in the past, with excellent results re: traction and longevity. If you're using warmers, try them at 32/32 after 45 min. at 172F or so. If yo're not using warmers, try 28/28 cold.

Have fun!

[georgiadawg]

well as a wise man once said you can go fast on track tires but how fast? You will never know until they give out then as you're falling on your head you will be saying "Damn i wish i had the race tires on"

[(diet)DrThunder]

If you push the limit on street tires, most likely you will fall.

Race tires you can fine tune air pressure for temperature.

I def. would go with the 002's(race)

You can tune any tires' air pressure for temperature...there's nothing special about a track day tire (or a touring tire for that matter) that makes it not respond to changes in air pressure.

[(diet)DrThunder]

well as a wise man once said you can go fast on track tires but how fast? You will never know until they give out then as you're falling on your head you will be saying "Damn i wish i had the race tires on"

I don't think anyone wise ever said that. The 002 R/S tire has really great feedback...you will know when you're getting near the limits _way_ before you're sliding down the track on your head.

At the pace the guy is talking about, he'll be nowhere near falling off because his tires aren't sticky enough. Those tires are capable of drama-free sub 1:40 times all day.

[Jugglenutz]

I made the mistake of running straight street tires as a newb many moons ago...won't make that mistake again...stick with your race tires.

[(diet)DrThunder]

Dude, pay attention. He's not askling about straight street tires. He has Bridgestone BT002 R/S, which are made specifically for exactly what he's doing with them. I'm not arguing against using the other tires...obviously they are great tires. But it is bad information to tell the guy he shouldn't ride on his scary, rock-hard street tires...they are no such thing.

Sheesh.

[Val]

Thanks for input guys. Ya I don't think I'm killing much of anything with my lap times and was just looking for the best insurance policy.
I know we've all read post about guys binning it after their track/street tires went North of the sweet spot as well as guys binning it on cold race tires.
I was just worried about keeping the temp in the race tires at my pace and didn't think of dropping a few pounds to achieve this. Normally run 32f/r cold.
Thanks again,
Val

[Jugglenutz]

Nothing I said was in response to what you said...merely pointing out the fact that's its not worth it to swap. Race tires hold up fine at 70 degrees. Why waste the time making a switch?

Sheesh! Don't be so sensitive big thunda! :D

[Jugglenutz]

Thanks for input guys. Ya I don't think I'm killing much of anything with my lap times and was just looking for the best insurance policy.
I know we've all read post about guys binning it after their track/street tires went North of the sweet spot as well as guys binning it on cold race tires.
I was just worried about keeping the temp in the race tires at my pace and didn't think of dropping a few pounds to achieve this. Normally run 32f/r cold.
Thanks again,
Val

Isn't 32 psi a bit high when temps outside are more than 70? (I'm learning just as you are, and could be totally wrong). It seems when tires come up to temp that would give you a 35-36psi. I suppose psi dependant on a variety of factors...riding style, wear, and probably tire brand most of all. Is there a "good numbers" range to start tire psi at?

[(diet)DrThunder]

Thanks for input guys. Ya I don't think I'm killing much of anything with my lap times and was just looking for the best insurance policy.
I know we've all read post about guys binning it after their track/street tires went North of the sweet spot as well as guys binning it on cold race tires.
I was just worried about keeping the temp in the race tires at my pace and didn't think of dropping a few pounds to achieve this. Normally run 32f/r cold.
Thanks again,
Val

The point of dropping the temps in this case isn't to get more heat in the tires, it's to help them run cooler (and last longer). I know this might be counter-intuitive, but it is the result we've been seeing w. those pressures this year. If you're riding around doing 1:47, that is fast enough to get heat in your tires at either pressure. Your best insurance policy is to have some confidence, be smooth, and if yo're pushing to the point where you're uncomfortable, slow down. This is all the insurance you need...either of your tire choices are great.

Oh, and going under 1:50 is a perfectly respectable time around Barber. Is it going to win any races? Of course not, but if you pick a random group of 100 motorcycle riders off the street, I bet only 1 or 2 of them (if that) could do a 1:47 around Barber...so be proud! :)

Give it a shot either way... :up:

[(diet)DrThunder]

Nothing I said was in response to what you said...merely pointing out the fact that's its not worth it to swap. Race tires hold up fine at 70 degrees. Why waste the time making a switch?

Sheesh! Don't be so sensitive big thunda! :D

I'm only sensitive when I see newer guys getting bad information, and scaring the kid into not riding on his perfectly good track day tires with a completely unrelated (to his question) story about you crashing is bad information.

If you were merely pointing out that it's not worth it to swap, you might have said something like "it's not worth it to swap, your race tires will work fine." That's all I was getting at.

[(diet)DrThunder]

Isn't 32 psi a bit high when temps outside are more than 70? (I'm learning just as you are, and could be totally wrong). It seems when tires come up to temp that would give you a 35-36psi. I suppose psi dependant on a variety of factors...riding style, wear, and probably tire brand most of all. Is there a "good numbers" range to start tire psi at?

Not for the 002 R/S, which has a stiffer construction than the 002 race tires.

[(diet)DrThunder]

Oh, and nice avatar :D

[ToddClark]

Val, the R/S tires will be fine for the laptimes you're turning, and even a bit faster, with no problems at all, but, im with the other post, why bother changing them?

You need to give me a call sometime, havent heard from you in awhile. :up:

[Sig]

I've heard that street tires will give you better traction if it's pretty cold outside at the track. If you can't keep the race tires hot they are like rocks and don't provide as much traction as a street tire.

[Jugglenutz]

I'm only sensitive when I see newer guys getting bad information, and scaring the kid into not riding on his perfectly good track day tires with a completely unrelated (to his question) story about you crashing is bad information.

If you were merely pointing out that it's not worth it to swap, you might have said something like "it's not worth it to swap, your race tires will work fine." That's all I was getting at.

Incidentally, the tire that sent me over the front of my bike was the Dunlop 001s (if memory serves correctly, this was all the way back in 03)...not sure if the 002 is newer version of that tire, or if it's a completely different compound.

[slaw0002]

Getting ready to run Barber tomorrow and I was thinking about pulling off the 002 race and swap them with the 002 R/S due to the weather man calling for a high of 70. I don't burn up the track and ran 47's during my last visit. (Would like to see 45/46 this visit).
Load the bike and forget about it or pull out the spoons?
Will track tires always be superior regardless of air temp or is there a point/temp when street/track rubber becomes just as good or better?
Thanks in advance,
Val

If you are thinking of changing tires or have any questions about the tires , just ask Mike at the STG rig !!! He looks kind of funny but he knows ALOT about tires , temp , wear , setup , Ect , Ect .

[(diet)DrThunder]

I"ve heard people say this too, and I"m not sure if there is anything to it or not...if so, you'd need to be near or below freezing ambient temps to realize any benefit (if there is any benefit).

[Jugglenutz]

Oh, and nice avatar :D

THanks :D Saw it on break.com and thought it was hilarious :D

Another question, if a tire has a stiffer construction, why would it require more air pressure to have better traction?

[(diet)DrThunder]

Incidentally, the tire that sent me over the front of my bike was the Dunlop 001s (if memory serves correctly, this was all the way back in 03)...not sure if the 002 is newer version of that tire, or if it's a completely different compound.

I assume you mean the Bridgestone 001. Yes, a) it is a completely different tire and b) the tire isn't what sent you over the front of your bike. :) Besides, your argument is losing steam all the time, as 001's _were_ race tires, not street tires.

Whachu talkin' 'bout Willis?

[(diet)DrThunder]

THanks :D Saw it on break.com and thought it was hilarious :D

Another question, if a tire has a stiffer construction, why would it require more air pressure to have better traction?

The stiffer construction means that the profile of the contact patch will change less v. tire pressure changes...that's what I meant to say there. It's not that they have more traction. I have a sneaking suspicion that the 002 R/S will work better at 30 or so in the rear, but I'm not sure.

[Jugglenutz]

I assume you mean the Bridgestone 001. Yes, a) it is a completely different tire and b) the tire isn't what sent you over the front of your bike. :) Besides, your argument is losing steam all the time, as 001's _were_ race tires, not street tires.

Whachu talkin' 'bout Willis?

I'm 100% sure they were dunlops...i must have the model number wrong. I used to run the 001's...had better luck the dots than i did on the slicks

[Jugglenutz]

The stiffer construction means that the profile of the contact patch will change less v. tire pressure changes...that's what I meant to say there. It's not that they have more traction. I have a sneaking suspicion that the 002 R/S will work better at 30 or so in the rear, but I'm not sure.

I better stop before I confuse myself...i talked with starnes about it a bit at CMP and was surprised to hear he can actually feel the tire's carcass flexing and bending...I can do that too...the tire just has to be flat :D You know what that foo' is talkin bout?

[(diet)DrThunder]

Ya, if your bike is set up well, you can definitely feel the carcass flexing under certain conditions (front under braking/trail braking, rear under acceleration, for example).

If you ever were to try Pirelli's race tires back-to-back with Dunlops (for example) you'd really be able to feel it...it's a huge difference.

[Val]

Thanks again guys and I'm sticking with the Race.

Todd... Hey long time no see... I didn't get to ride much this year due to my JOB. Heck if I would've known civilian life was this tough, I would've never retired from the military. Also, funny you posted in this thread because I was going to drop Lee and you as the reason I ride sooo slow. :) :) :Poke: When you coming out of retirement????

[(diet)DrThunder]

If you want to sell those 002 R/S's (assuming they're new or close) let me know...I want to try a set for control riding.

[ToddClark]

Thanks again guys and I'm sticking with the Race.

Todd... Hey long time no see... I didn't get to ride much this year due to my JOB. Heck if I would've known civilian life was this tough, I would've never retired from the military. Also, funny you posted in this thread because I was going to drop Lee and you as the reason I ride sooo slow. :) :) :Poke: When you coming out of retirement????

im still doing ALOT of trackdays with Bargy, and i plan on racing a few rounds next season (despite what the wife says :crackup:) I'll be out at Tally in Dec. to instruct with Ed during the 2 day school he's doing. You should come on out. We'll all be there playing while the lil ducklings are in the classroom. :up:

[Val]

Tires are new and I've got a few other bikes they will fit on.

Might just do that Todd. I've been twice so what's a third or fourth going to hurt. Plus, didn't you say 40 was a good age to start racing??:)

[ToddClark]

Tires are new and I've got a few other bikes they will fit on.

Might just do that Todd. I've been twice so what's a third or fourth going to hurt. Plus, didn't you say 40 was a good age to start racing??:)
it was for me! :up:

Oh, and you dont have to do the school, while the students are in the classroom, its an open trackday. Just do that and we can go out and ride together. :up:

[Val]

it was for me! :up:

Oh, and you dont have to do the school, while the students are in the classroom, its an open trackday. Just do that and we can go out and ride together. :up:
If I'm in the states and the weather is decent, you'll see me there..:up:

[Samk73]

To go faster you should put a whole buncha air in the front. ;)



{*Note: results may vary}

[Val]

To go faster you should put a whole buncha air in the front. ;)



{*Note: results may vary}
I've actually witnessed a guy running pretty decent at the track with a BUNCH:wow: of air in the front and when we dropped it back to the recommended he crashed.. I'd tell you his name but I'm sure you don't know him, although it does look like you share the same first name...:D :D :D


And once again I had a great time at Barber. Seemed a little more conjested then normal but still a hoot.
Should of signed up Sam...;)

[JBall]

I've heard that street tires will give you better traction if it's pretty cold outside at the track. If you can't keep the race tires hot they are like rocks and don't provide as much traction as a street tire.

Might be better at a street pace (although I just got back from a long street trip on race tires including 6 hours in the rain and they worked fine) but race tires will always be better on the track. At the really cold Autobahn last year, guys were running rain tires in the dry for traction. Rain compounds are really soft. The saft tires will always heat up quicker and give more grip.

[Samk73]

I've actually witnessed a guy running pretty decent at the track with a BUNCH:wow: of air in the front and when we dropped it back to the recommended he crashed.. I'd tell you his name but I'm sure you don't know him, although it does look like you share the same first name...:D :D :D


And once again I had a great time at Barber. Seemed a little more conjested then normal but still a hoot.
Should of signed up Sam...;)


Yea, I think I heard about "that guy" with the 75psi front tire. :o

I wish I could have been at Barber last weekend so you could tow me around a bit. I had a great time there in August, though. :D Felt pretty good for the first time back with the new clavicle.