This is important...

[Chip@KWS]

In cased you missed it here:
http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=27852

You can really see it here:
http://forums.13x.com/showthread.php?t=128231

As an industry and a community we should not allow "manufactures" to blatantly steal other companies ideas and then prosper from it. Charlie VanValkenburgh and Pit Bull represents the very core of our sport. A racer who loved the sport so much that he quit his career as a rocket scientist to fill a void that the racing community needed....A race stand that held up to the riggers of real use. He built his company making the best products he could and then supporting his customers the best way he knows how. From that humble beginning he has grown his company to include more products like dampers, spools and tire tree's. All of the Pit Bull products carry the same incredibly high level of quality, durability, and engineering. The best part....Charlie and Pit Bull still offer the same customer service that they did in the beginning and even more racer support..

This incredible supporter our sport is getting ripped off in front our very eyes and we as a community are letting it happen. I am asking that all of us step up and defend the supporters, creators, and innovators in this sport by not letting the copy cat companies prosper. I am asking that as members of this wonderful community of motorcycle roadracers that we support the companies that support us. We support the companies that create better products for us to use. Buy the original, buy the product from the guy who actually designed it and built with his own two hands instead of the guy who bought a product and then shipped it to China to be copied and made cheaper.

Competition is good, it is what this sport is based on and it improves the products we use. Imports are good, it keeps pricing realistic in an already ultra expensive sport. Blatant theft of ideas and design is bad and if we let it happen it will eventually ruin our sport.

I believe in Pit Bulls products and I believe they are worth every penny that Pit Bull charges. They are made in the USA by US workers and a good portion of the money that Charlie makes on the stuff he sells he give back to racers in the form of contingency.

In an effort to do our part in helping Pit Bull, KWS Motorsports will match the other companies price on it's blatant copy of Pit Bulls Tire Tree's. Of course I would encourage you to buy the product straight from Pit Bull at retail, but if we can do our small part in keeping people from buying copy cat products based purely on price the this what we will do. I don't know how long we can afford to do it and I don't know how long we will need to do it, but this is what we are going to do.

Thank you all for loving this sport as much as I do and please do whats right.

[rugbymook]

You da man! :up:

[kjohnson]

All of my stands are Pitbull,and I have them for the above stated reasons.I won't use anything else. :up:

This re-enforces what I always say to those who are thinking of going to market with an "invention"-Better get the best patent lawyer you can find.Money should never be an object in these scenarios.Just ask Floyd Rose.

[tony715]

ditto!

very nice people to work with, i called to use contingency, without a problem. great quality and fast shipping. i didn't know they had so many other products

i'll call next week and pick up a tire tree, after seeing rugby mook looking so cool with his at mid ohio i new i had to have one!

:up:

[GixxerBlade]

I tried using other stuff, honestly I did, but I always ended up back at PitBull. Good quality and good price. I can take a 3 year old PitBull stand and sell it back to the community for almost as much as I bought it for. Its the Mercedes of stands. But in all fairness Powerstands is making it interesting for Pitbull.

[STT-GUY]

In cased you missed it here:
http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=27852

You can really see it here:
http://forums.13x.com/showthread.php?t=128231

As an industry and a community we should not allow "manufactures" to blatantly steal other companies ideas and then prosper from it. Charlie VanValkenburgh and Pit Bull represents the very core of our sport. A racer who loved the sport so much that he quit his career as a rocket scientist to fill a void that the racing community needed....A race stand that held up to the riggers of real use. He built his company making the best products he could and then supporting his customers the best way he knows how. From that humble beginning he has grown his company to include more products like dampers, spools and tire tree's. All of the Pit Bull products carry the same incredibly high level of quality, durability, and engineering. The best part....Charlie and Pit Bull still offer the same customer service that they did in the beginning and even more racer support..

This incredible supporter our sport is getting ripped off in front our very eyes and we as a community are letting it happen. I am asking that all of us step up and defend the supporters, creators, and innovators in this sport by not letting the copy cat companies prosper. I am asking that as members of this wonderful community of motorcycle roadracers that we support the companies that support us. We support the companies that create better products for us to use. Buy the original, buy the product from the guy who actually designed it and built with his own two hands instead of the guy who bought a product and then shipped it to China to be copied and made cheaper.

Competition is good, it is what this sport is based on and it improves the products we use. Imports are good, it keeps pricing realistic in an already ultra expensive sport. Blatant theft of ideas and design is bad and if we let it happen it will eventually ruin our sport.

I believe in Pit Bulls products and I believe they are worth every penny that Pit Bull charges. They are made in the USA by US workers and a good portion of the money that Charlie makes on the stuff he sells he give back to racers in the form of contingency.

In an effort to do our part in helping Pit Bull, KWS Motorsports will match the other companies price on it's blatant copy of Pit Bulls Tire Tree's. Of course I would encourage you to buy the product straight from Pit Bull at retail, but if we can do our small part in keeping people from buying copy cat products based purely on price the this what we will do. I don't know how long we can afford to do it and I don't know how long we will need to do it, but this is what we are going to do.

Thank you all for loving this sport as much as I do and please do whats right.


We are commited to telling the nearly 20,000 riders that will ride with us under the STT umbrella this year to all buy Pit Bull stands. THAT's way cool!! :up:

[Yama-saurus]

i need to order new stands for the shop.PB gold and red baby !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:up:

[Stillie]

LOL, I swear sometimes we are related Chip, then I remember you would fit in my boot. :D

I posted that link on several forums along with similar, but far less expansive comments.

I think I'll be quoting your post here in those same threads. If that's ok with you...

[OldSlowGuy]

That reminds me. I need to run by Cycle Gear tomorrow and get a Pit Bull rear stand for the EX!

[Chip@KWS]

LOL, I swear sometimes we are related Chip, then I remember you would fit in my boot. :D

I posted that link on several forums along with similar, but far less expansive comments.

I think I'll be quoting your post here in those same threads. If that's ok with you...

Yes....spread the word and educate the masses....

I think the vast majority of people would not buy a copied product if they knew it was copied. Let em know.

Pit Bull doesn't have to spend tons of cash and years in court if the we as a community just stop buying copied products.

[wookie]

Pit-Bull/ Full Spectrum Designs all the way!
Munky luva beeches!!!!

JB

[nig]

In an effort to do our part in helping Pit Bull, KWS Motorsports will match the other companies price on it's blatant copy of Pit Bulls Tire Tree's. Of course I would encourage you to buy the product straight from Pit Bull at retail, but if we can do our small part in keeping people from buying copy cat products based purely on price the this what we will do. I don't know how long we can afford to do it and I don't know how long we will need to do it, but this is what we are going to do.


You're losing money doing this?

[eurobiketrash]

Pit Bull quality without question. Charlie and company are easy to work with and support racing with a passion. Knock out the knock offs!

[Dave K]

You're losing money doing this?

Yes.

[G Dawg]

I've posted this also. I just have to say thanks to Charlie, Kathy and company.
I bought a 650R near Birmingham, last week. On my way to Chicago, [for Christmas] I stopped by Pit Bull, so they could measure the bike, for some custom stands. I got here early, as not to disrupt thier company Christmas party. Well, I was not allowed to leave, until I was very well feed.:up:
I have done the same as Chip in the past. Not losing money, but breaking even, just so a customer would not by those shit knock offs.
As has been stated, Pit Bull is a huge part of the WERA family

[roy826ex]

I am a Pit-Bull supporter all the way, already sent in my contribution.
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r173/rholmes18/2006%20GSX-R%201000/PC080004.jpg

[ekraft84]

I'll continue to use Pit Bull and tell everyone I know to do the same. As mentioned, Charlie is a class act. They offer contingency, top-notch support and their products are second to none (as shown by Vortex and Powerstands copying them). :up:

Vortex and Powerstands. :down:

[lfg929]

The first stand I ever purchased was an LP. The second stand was a Pit Bull. The next three stands were all Pit Bull's as well. I can get stands from sponsors for much less than the cost of a Pit Bull, yet I still go down to my local shop and pay full retail for a Pit Bull. I would rather spend an extra $40 and get something that will probably last me forever, than save that money and buy something that doesn't work as well and won't last as long.

[acerkic]

pit bull all the way here, would not even consider any other brand, now if wife would let me buy those service stands.......droooool

[censured]

Good deal:up: My First stand was a Pit Bull, then to 'save money' I bought a Handy tree stand and it cracked with less than a month of use. Luckily I learn my lessons quickly.

[WERA522]

There is something other than Pitbull? Nah. I stick with my PB.

[Phoenix]

PB all the way. Charlie even did a one off pin for the rear axle on my 998R, and it fit perfectly! I will only buy/use PB!

[Brian Van]

Power Stands may as well hault the production of the tire tree. They will be lucky to sell a single one to anyone who visits this BBS, oh shit EVERYONE comes to the Wera BBS.

[nikponcherello]

This is going to sound like an incredible lie, but I swear it's true and I'll get pictures the next time I get a chance.

When I was at the racetrack in Mexico City there was a vendor who was set up with a bunch of products. He must have had 20 rearstands wrapped in bubble wrap. I saw them from a distance and they looked exactly like my pitbul stands looked when they arrived in the mail last year.
I started to walk over and I noticed that it looked like they had different wheels sticking out. These looked exactly like pit-bul stands except they had rollerblade wheels. Here's the kicker, the name "rotweiler" with a mean looking dog as a mascot. I was pissed. I agree that pit-bul has great quality. That plus contingecy is why I've bought 3 of them. I don't know who made the first stands amoung the US manufacturers, but this was a clear rip-off of pit-bul. Low.

[nig]

Yes.

Losing just because you could be charging more for them, or because you're actually selling them for less than you pay for them?

[Roach]

Losing just because you could be charging more for them, or because you're actually selling them for less than you pay for them?

Unless you're buying in bulk from PB, you'd be losing money on each one at that price point.

- Roach

[nig]

Why can't the man answer for himself :D A classy move to be sure if he's selling below cost, but I'm always weary of sob stories with a sales pitch at the end.

[Brian Van]

Losing just because you could be charging more for them, or because you're actually selling them for less than you pay for them?

How is this relevant to the topic at hand? Chips offer is very generous to say the least. Even if he sells it for excatly what he pays he is losing money. :beer: raise a drink for our man Chip tonight!

[nig]

It's relevant to me, because if he's making any money off this deal it's a pretty lame place to advertise. Inside sources say he is not.

[Brian Van]

Selling a far superior product for the same price as the Power Stand would be a bad ass deal no matter if they were to be turning a profit. (which they are not) I know exactly what the cost of this stand is as we are a Pit Bull dealer ourselves. Go start a conspiracy theory somewhere else. Is it impossible someone would step up and do something cool for all of us?

Personally I don't think any of the racers would take Chip up. They would just order a Tire Tree from Pit Bull or their usual source and pay what it is worth. That is how it works over here. This is a pretty tight group of people who work together and support each other. The questions you have ask are no those one of the community we are a part of would ask. This has nothing to do with money

[CATMAN]

I started with their stands and after five yrs they look the same,work the same....... i'm startin to belive their gonna be the only ones i'll ever need - good feel!only need to buy something once! cant remember too many things i can say that about!... Great thread! :down: :Puke: FORK the copycat businesses!:down: THEYR all over the place these days- prolly for the bigger $ co.s,they can send lawyers but MOM/PA need to be looked out for:up: - i'm needin a dampner soon will buy Pit Bull now!(was looking at them since i saw them listed on KWS 's ingrediant list in the for sale section recently (bikes for sale!) John

[ginko]

question--if Powerstands make cheap crappy products, then wouldn't there tire stand be 'different'? Sure, it looks the same, but if its inferior it can't be the same.

Seems similar to people buying at Walmart. People know everything in there are cheap chinese made knock-offs, but they still sell. Its about supply and demand.

I'm sure the PitBull is the mercedes benz of stand products, but not everyone can afford the mercedes, so some will purchase the cheaper more inferior product and the quality they pay for will speak for itself afterwards.

[nig]

Selling a far superior product for the same price as the Power Stand would be a bad ass deal no matter if they were to be turning a profit. (which they are not) I know exactly what the cost of this stand is as we are a Pit Bull dealer ourselves. Go start a conspiracy theory somewhere else. Is it impossible someone would step up and do something cool for all of us?

Personally I don't think any of the racers would take Chip up. They would just order a Tire Tree from Pit Bull or their usual source and pay what it is worth. That is how it works over here. This is a pretty tight group of people who work together and support each other. The questions you have ask are no those one of the community we are a part of would ask. This has nothing to do with money

Was that a personal attack? I'd just like to know before I hand you your internet ass.

[Brian Van]

I started with their stands and after five yrs they look the same,work the same....... i'm startin to belive their gonna be the only ones i'll ever need - good feel!only need to buy something once! cant remember too many things i can say that about!... Great thread! :down: :Puke: FORK the copycat businesses!:down: THEYR all over the place these days- prolly for the bigger $ co.s,they can send lawyers but MOM/PA need to be looked out for:up: - i'm needin a dampner soon will buy Pit Bull now!(was looking at them since i saw them listed on KWS 's ingrediant list in the for sale section recently (bikes for sale!) John

Happy New Year John! How is that killer SV comin?

[Mongo]

Was that a personal attack? I'd just like to know before I hand you your internet ass.

And then I'll hand you yours ;) This isn't a good place to start a pissing match.

We as you may have noticed, moderate our BBS pretty well. If this were an advertisement I'd have deleted it or moved it. It is not. It is not a promotional pitch for KWS.

[ekraft84]

Was that a personal attack? I'd just like to know before I hand you your internet ass.

LMAO. And the "I'm bigger than you on the internet" starts. Classy move.

[nig]

Yes, obviously "internet ass" was a sarcastic joke along the same lines as your thought :p


This isn't a good place to start a pissing match.


This is a joke, right? You forgot the smiley like me?

[Mongo]

Nope, I'm serious. The problem with starting a pissing match here is it's useless, I ALWAYS win :D

[nig]

Nope, I'm serious. The problem with starting a pissing match here is it's useless, I ALWAYS win :D

Oh come on :) Do special people get to start pissing matches or what? There are more here than anywhere else. Do I need to contribute money to the site or something?

I asked simple questions, in a way I thought was polite enough. I explained my reasoning:

A classy move to be sure if he's selling below cost, but I'm always weary of sob stories with a sales pitch at the end.

And yet I still get what might be an attack from somebody who implies my values are below those of "real racers."

Why is being a cautious consumer a conspiracy theory? I have no reason to trust Chip any more than any other salesman, maybe you do.

[CATMAN]

Hey Brian-glad i got the alth rotors,they look like you said Great!- and the rubber/(slicks) seems as fresh as i get at the track)altho i am relativey new i have good feel,senses!)Thanks for askin, this partime 51 yr ol racer loves to bring a WMD to a Boxin Match- you should thank K3 he steered me to U guys! and offer his book on your excellent site(sportbiketrackgear.com)! sp? HAPPY NEW YEAR, cant install all the goodies until shoulder surgery qustion is answered -JOHN in NJ

[Mongo]

You can start a pissing match. It's not a good idea because you will lose. But you can try if you like, hell I'm allowing you to do this one for now aren't I?

[nig]

Cool, thanks for the go ahead. I have no quarrel with you, just waiting on Brian Van.

[jeremy dunn]

Cool, thanks for the go ahead. I have no quarrel with you, just waiting on Brian Van.

CASBY LIVES!!!!!!!!:crackup:

[nig]

My grammar is better than his :)

[Brian Van]

Oh come on :) Do special people get to start pissing matches or what? There are more here than anywhere else. Do I need to contribute money to the site or something?

I asked simple questions, in a way I thought was polite enough. I explained my reasoning:



And yet I still get what might be an attack from somebody who implies my values are below those of "real racers."

Why is being a cautious consumer a conspiracy theory? I have no reason to trust Chip any more than any other salesman, maybe you do.

You do not have to be a racer to be a part of this community. There are a ton of great folks on here who may never even turn a wheel in competition. You need to turn off your computer and go think this through before you post anymore worthless BS. Sure there may be a ton of threads where we break each others rocks, this is not one and even you should be able to realize this fact and refrain from the "tool shed" like behavior.

This place is made up of folks who would disable a bike and loan parts to help another get on the track, raise money for a family because Barnacle Bill asked, raise money to help Nelson Ledges improve safety and support a friend like Charlie (Pit Bull) when some shit goes sideways. When we are done with our group hug we will get back to the name calling and the rest of the fun stuff:D

Take a minute for this to digest then come back and behave.

[Mongo]

I have no reason to trust Chip any more than any other salesman, maybe you do.

One thing I forgot to add, you should trust Chip quite simply because I do. If you can't trust me and WERA then you probably shouldn't be using this site for information....

[nig]

You do not have to be a racer to be a part of this community. There are a ton of great folks on here who may never even turn a wheel in competition. You need to turn off your computer and go think this through before you post anymore worthless BS. Sure there may be a ton of threads where we break each others rocks, this is not one and even you should be able to realize this fact and refrain from the "tool shed" like behavior.

This place is made up of folks who would disable a bike and loan parts to help another get on the track, raise money for a family because Barnacle Bill asked, raise money to help Nelson Ledges improve safety and support a friend like Charlie (Pit Bull) when some shit goes sideways. When we are done with our group hug we will get back to the name calling and the rest of the fun stuff:D

Take a minute for this to digest then come back and behave.

Quit acting high and mighty, you have no credibility in this particular matter. Shouldn't you be somewhere peddling Bohn's Knox knockoffs with fake CE tags as usual?

I'm shocked you don't sell Powerstands, it's no different except that you're apparently not buddy-buddy with Knox so you don't mind ripping them off you like would Pitbull.

[nig]

One thing I forgot to add, you should trust Chip quite simply because I do. If you can't trust me and WERA then you probably shouldn't be using this site for information....

I did not know you trusted Chip, you posted after me :) If you do in this case, then I'll take your word for it.

I personally don't trust his ideas about price/quality due to the helmet discussions in which he hasn't defended himself very well.

[Brian Van]

Quit acting high and mighty, you have no credibility in this particular matter. Shouldn't you be somewhere peddling Bohn's Knox knockoffs with fake CE tags as usual?

I'm shocked you don't sell Powerstands, it's no different except that you're apparently not buddy-buddy with Knox so you don't mind ripping them off you like would Pitbull.

We actually sell both the Knox and Bohn armor. I use both myself personally wiht the best of results. Do a little more research and you will find the Bohn and the Knox may have had a similar appearance, however they were made form completely different materials. The Knox was using material which was intended to be used once, Bohn uses material that can be used again. The shoulder straps were quite a bit different as well, I will not explain any further, not necessary. Try harder, I am sure you can do better than this.

[Chip@KWS]

Oh...this is nice....:rolleyes:

Nig - I am going to be completely honest....I have no idea what our cost from Pit Bull are on those stands and it really doesn't matter to me...I am at home taking care of my sick wife not at the shop. I do know for a fact that when you factor in shipping our true cost will be more than the what the copy cat company is selling the stands for and in the end we will lose money on each one of these stands we sell at that price.

I would like to reiterate that the whole point of this was not for KWS to sell any stands what so ever, but to let people know what is going on. I feel that once people know what is going on that they will do the right thing but if economically some one is forced to consider one of the copy cat stands based solely on price, I would negate that problem.

I would also like to point out that there are several other great stand manufactures that make original, creative, and durable products. I just perfer Pit Bull and they seem to be the company that gets copied the most. If another company had stolen a Woodcraft stand design I would be equally as upset.

Mongo - Thank you.

Everybody Else - Nobody raise a glass for me tonight....raise one for Charlie. :beer:

[CATMAN]

he KWS prolly didnt because until now his word meant something round here-with this group it seemed!! its only my .02 but b-r-e-a-t-h-e. I,m here visitting from ccs side and know mistakes happen-but we are all part of a small society and need to learn and give a lil margin to each other I have,so i have more time to spend on real things that face/threaten:beer my existance !-alls good PEACE!:beer: john in nj

[Yama-saurus]

Oh...this is nice....:rolleyes:

I would like to reiterate that the whole point of this was not for KWS to sell any stands what so ever, but to let people know what is going on. I feel that once people know what is going on that they will do the right thing but if economically some one is forced to consider one of the copy cat stands based solely on price, I would negate that problem.

Everybody Else - Nobody raise a glass for me tonight....raise one for Charlie. :beer:

Chipper,
had three guys order PB stands off our website just since last night. all three stated it was for support of sir charles and his gang. do you have some kws stickers to send me so i can add them to their stand orders?:D :Poke:

[RacerTech]

We actually sell both the Knox and Bohn armor. I use both myself personally wiht the best of results. Do a little more research and you will find the Bohn and the Knox may have had a similar appearance, however they were made form completely different materials. The Knox was using material which was intended to be used once, Bohn uses material that can be used again. The shoulder straps were quite a bit different as well, I will not explain any further, not necessary. Try harder, I am sure you can do better than this.

Nice revisionist history.

So if Powerstands copied the pit bull stands, but used cheaper material and bigger wheels, it'd be ok? :rolleyes:

Bohn ripped off the knox design, cut them out of the US market (because they were the exclusive US importer of Knox at the time), fraudulently labeled the "new" products so people would think they were actually CE, maintained the pages on their website at the time so that they said "knox" in the title yet were selling their "bohn" copies, and a SLEW of other disgusting business practices in regard to that whole deal.

But I guess that's different ... because, you know, the straps are different. And they're not really made from a CE tested material (even though they are labeled to make you think they are). So you'll sell those and talk about how powerstands is soooooo bad and copied Pit Bull, and no one should buy them. Give me a break.

Both Bohn and this "Powerstands" place are equally lousy for screwing over someone else to make a buck.

( This of course has nothing to do with Chip, his integrity, or his intentions. Sorry to threadjack )

- RT

[Brian Van]

Nice revisionist history.

So if Powerstands copied the pit bull stands, but used cheaper material and bigger wheels, it'd be ok? :rolleyes:

Bohn ripped off the knox design, cut them out of the US market (because they were the exclusive importer at the time), fraudulently labeled the "new" products so people would think they were actually CE, maintained the pages on their website at the time so that they said "knox" in the title yet were selling their "bohn" copies, and a SLEW of other disgusting business practices in regard to that whole deal.

But I guess that's different ... because, you know, the straps are different. And they're not really made from a CE tested material (even though they are labeled to make you think they are). So you'll sell those and talk about how powerstands is soooooo bad and copied Pit Bull, and no one should buy them. Give me a break.

( This of course has nothing to do with Chip, his integrity, or his intentions. Sorry to threadjack )

- RT

Happy to revisit this if it makes you feel better. (love to argue) You have only heard the side of the Knox/Bohn story you wanted to hear or perhaps all that was available to you. The two products only look similar, the armor is completely different as well as the straps being completely different (the Knox actually had a nicer strap). The armor in the Knox model was designed to be a one time and out material where the armor in the Bohn offers the ability to be reused. The base material for each of the models is different as well, the Knox is less flexible and considerably more dense than the Bohn (especially the Bohn Cool Air model). The shape of the armor on each model differs as well. So in the end you have two companies that were partnered, parted ways and Bohn produced a back protetor which shared only one thing in common with the, a similar appearance. How do I know this, I own both and have compared them side by side. Apples to apples...

That is a whole lot different than purchasing the Pit Bull Tire Tree, painting it black and using it for a photo shoot.

[nig]

What do the Pitbull and Powerstands share besides similar appearance?

[Brian Van]

Read the F***ing email Charlie sent to Road Racing World. Charlie makes a claim that Power Stands purchased one of his Pit Bull Tire Trees, painted the stand black and used it for a photo shoot advertising it as their product. HUGE difference between this and the Knox/Bohn thing. WTF are you doing arguing if you have not even read the email that brought this to the top? Like I said I hope you can do better than you have already...

[Chip@KWS]

Nice revisionist history.

So if Powerstands copied the pit bull stands, but used cheaper material and bigger wheels, it'd be ok? :rolleyes:

Bohn ripped off the knox design, cut them out of the US market (because they were the exclusive US importer of Knox at the time), fraudulently labeled the "new" products so people would think they were actually CE, maintained the pages on their website at the time so that they said "knox" in the title yet were selling their "bohn" copies, and a SLEW of other disgusting business practices in regard to that whole deal.

But I guess that's different ... because, you know, the straps are different. And they're not really made from a CE tested material (even though they are labeled to make you think they are). So you'll sell those and talk about how powerstands is soooooo bad and copied Pit Bull, and no one should buy them. Give me a break.

Both Bohn and this "Powerstands" place are equally lousy for screwing over someone else to make a buck.

( This of course has nothing to do with Chip, his integrity, or his intentions. Sorry to threadjack )

- RT

Nothing aginst Brian Van or sportbiketrackgear.com but this is all completely true....Bohn is just as bad as the other copy cats in this industry.

[Brian Van]

What do the Pitbull and Powerstands share besides similar appearance?

Your avatar speaks volumes about you, very appropriate actually

[Chip@KWS]

Your avatar speaks volumes about you, very appropriate actually

Brian - Let it go...The guy asked a simple question and got the answer he was looking for.

Now tell the Bohn guy to go jump in a lake...:up:

[Brian Van]

Nothing aginst Brian Van or sportbiketrackgear.com but this is all completely true....Bohn is just as bad as the other copy cats in this industry.

We will have to agree to disagree on this one. Unless there is more to the story I do not know I feel it is a different situation all together. Look at the different direction the companies have gone in with their current offerings?

[wdavis009]

The two products only look similar, the armor is completely different as well as the straps being completely different (the Knox actually had a nicer strap). The armor in the Knox model was designed to be a one time and out material where the armor in the Bohn offers the ability to be reused.

Hello Brian,

I think the real issue with Bohn is the claim of being CE certified combined with the claim that the armor can be reused. From another web-site:


An article on the British Motorcycle federation website makes reference to improper use of CE claims by some clothing manufacturers. While this is clearly illegal in Europe, Bohn has been successfully attaching a “CE” label on their products in North America, without actually being certified and apparently without any repercussion. Shady marketing practices? To say the least.

www.bmf.co.uk/briefing/in....inc.shtml

Bohn's website offers no specific information regarding which CE specs are being met or how it is being proven. Any company that tries to tag-on to safety standards and markings without actually providing open evidence or paying for the right to market its products using the standard is obviously not selling in good faith. These claims are not only blatantly deceptive, but speak to the level of respect of us as customers and to the significance of the standard as a meaningful statement of credibility.

Bohn does not specify which standard they are referring to in their marketing statements of "exceeding CE specs" or "made to European CE standards". None of the Bohn back protectors have been tested or approved to any standard, and they are not made of the same materials as any CE approved protectors. Notice the lack of reference to the actual standard or levels in their literature. This claim was not only made years prior to the existence of the 1621-2 back protector standard, but they have still refused to submit for proper testing and certification. They hope you won't know the difference, or won't care.

Specifically, Bohn lists the Pro-Racer model as being "made to European CE standards". It is fairly obvious that Bohn has directly copied the appearance of the venerable Knox protectors that they once had exclusive distribution rights to in the U.S., a product with which they built their name and reputation. Since their relationship with Knox dissolved, Bohn has campaigned their own products, using a simpler, less-expensive foam internal construction as if it is essentially the same as the Knox. Attempting to downplay the obvious internal construction and performance differences between their product and the CE approved Knox protectors in a sort of conspicuous-confusion marketing approach.

As they back-track from the statements of CE approval, Bohn claims that all armor materials are the same, thus their protector will pass the tests without needing to be tested. Of course, the materials are not the same, nor is the construction. The tag-line is "made to European CE standard", not "passed" nor "approved". An extremely sordid use of semantics and misrepresentation. But they don't stop there, they actually attach that phony CE label. Do they make Rolexes and Oakleys too?

The other claim by Bohn is that their protectors can be used for multiple crashes. This goes against all other information about the only materials in use that will absorb the necessary amount of energy to meet the 1621-2 standard. So far, there are no companies that meet the proper standards without using materials that permanently deform after a crash impact, or multiple impacts during a single crash, just like helmets.

I have both also. I bought the Bohn from STT before I did any real research. The Knox, IMO, is clearly superior and what I use for both track and street.

[Chip@KWS]

Chipper,
had three guys order PB stands off our website just since last night. all three stated it was for support of sir charles and his gang. do you have some kws stickers to send me so i can add them to their stand orders?:D :Poke:

Thats cool as crap...

Don't I owe you some stickers and t-shirts? Send me an address and I will get the shipped on weds.

[DavieStone]

At the first of this year PowerStands approached us and gave me a set of bike stands. The quality, the weight of the stand and the unstability of the powerstand was horrible.

If someone wouldnt have stolen my Pitbull triple-tree holder...I'd have thrown the Powerstands away already.

[RacerTech]

in the end you have two companies that were partnered, parted ways and Bohn produced a back protetor which shared only one thing in common with the, a similar appearance. How do I know this, I own both and have compared them side by side. Apples to apples...

That is a whole lot different than purchasing the Pit Bull Tire Tree, painting it black and using it for a photo shoot.

Brian,

This has nothing to do with the performance of Bohn protectors, or your experience in using them. This has to do with the business practices of Bohn.

Everything I said is fact. Pure an simple. Bohn ("Actionstation" at the time) was the exclusive US importer of Knox. They copied the product, cut ties with Knox, and started selling their copy of it. THis was not a "parting of ways", Knox was blindsided by it (as publicly stated by the Knox guys at the time).

WHen this went down, Bohn used every dirty trick in the book to make their product sound like it was the same exact thing as a Knox (including using intentionally confusing advertising to make it seem as maybe just the name had changed but you were still getting the same thing), from it's appearance right down to affixing a fake CE label to it (which as mentioned above, is actually Illegal in Europe). They weren't singing the tune they are today about how their product was "different" in any way shape or form, they were actively trying to pass theirs off as a knox.

It doesn't matter how well their back protector performs ... I'm quite sure the "powerstands" tree performs well too. The fact is that Bohn did and continues to use deceptive practices to sell their products and ripped off someone else's hard work to get ahead. It's a lousy way to do business, and I personally wouldn't do business with them because of it.

Bohn is no different than "powerstands" (except that their copying didn't happen recently, and in many ways their practices were far worse than simply copying a product). They would not be where they are today were it not for them screwing Knox to get ahead in their market.

- Rt

[RacerTech]

Sorry to keep posting, but I wanted to note: Knox and Charlie (pit bull) have a lot in common in that Knox was the first company to develop CE certified body armor for motorcyclists. The same way Chip feels about Pit Bull, I feel about Knox.

They did so because before that, there was absolutely no standards - you basically strapped on some foam padding and hoped for the best. Some worked, some didn't. THey wanted to develop armor for motorcyclists that you would actually KNOW would absorb impact force. No one else was interested, and kept selling untested foam.

While not perfect (much like SNELL), it's now a standard testing that everyone (well, almost everyone ... some just pretend) uses for armor in their products, and we motorcyclists are better off because of it.

THAT is the company Bohn ripped off. Just like how "powerstands" is ripping off Charlie.

- Rt

[TWF2]

sad part is this kind crap happens every day on all levels.and nothing you can do about.you can raise hell but after while people forget and everything is as usual.
here is another example.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=011&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=320058707351&rd=1,1
picture you see is my product that I make myself.this pic is not of the copy but what I made.this guys bought bunch of different kits from me and probably had local machine shop multiply them and now he sells kits.

[(diet)DrThunder]

I also have nothing at all against Brian...have gotten good service and goods from him several times. In fact, his dedication to service is so great that I have chosen to overlook the fact that STG sells Bohn products and do business there anyway.

I have yet to see a good explanation by anyone as to why the Bohn protectors were made to look _exactly_ like the Knox ones. If they were changing the product for the better, clearly they'd want to differentiate themselves, not cause marketplace confusion. What could be worse than having a person accidentally buy a Knox protector when they meant to buy a Bohn, especially after all that hard work they put into improving it by getting rid of the one-time-use material?

The obvious answer is that none of the above accurately describes the situation. They copied the cosmetics and afixed fake CE labels for exactly one reason: to make money off the backs of Knox's previous successes in the marketplace by fooling people into buying Bohn instead of Knox.

If you don't believe that this market confusion exists, here is a quote from the Fireblade forum I just Googled up...it was result #8 or so when I searched "best back protector:"

I tried the Knox/Bohn, Dainese and a few others. The TLV offered the best protection and was the most comfortable of the ones I fitted. Also, the Bohn/Knox is a one use only that crushes upon impact, much like a helmet liner.
There is no "Knox/Bohn" protector, but this enthusiast thinks there is. And it's not like he wandered into a shop and bought it either...he's actively researching what one to buy in the thread (or helping someone else research) and this is what he believes. Here's another quote from the IndySuperbikes forum in a back protector thread:

I wear the bohn...nice. I believe that knox and bohn are the same company now...
In any case, the performance of the product is not at issue. I can't see how it's any different than the Pit Bull/Powerstands thing. Actually now that I think about it the Bohn thing might even be worse...they were actively trying to trick people into thinking they were buying something they weren't...and it's a safety item on top of all of that. Reprehensible in my opinion.

If someone can explain why it's different, please do so...I always have an open mind. In the interim, I won't be buying anything from Powerstands or Bohn...and that's a shame because Bohn actually markets some great stuff that isn't stolen from others.

[(diet)DrThunder]

sad part is this kind crap happens every day on all levels.and nothing you can do about.you can raise hell but after while people forget and everything is as usual.
here is another example.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=011&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=320058707351&rd=1,1
picture you see is my product that I make myself.this pic is not of the copy but what I made.this guys bought bunch of different kits from me and probably had local machine shop multiply them and now he sells kits.

Holy crap, I had no idea...I bought something SV (I don't remember what) from this guy last year. Sorry about that. I wa going to buy a captive spacer kit from him too...if you make that stuff for sure I'll buy it from you instead...or from wherever you recommend if you don't.

Ugh.

[RacerTech]

DDT -

Exactly. This has seriously hurt Knox in the US, and even 6 years later the market confusion continues.

If you want to know why they (Knox) discontinued the excellent back protector (THe black/silver X1/2000 being the last iteration) and have changed to a completely different looking design, I'd say with a great deal of confidence that the market confusion deliberately created by Bohn is the reason. SO many people think they are the same thing/company, as Bohn intended.

- RT

[TWF2]

every single spacer kit he sells he bought from me to copy it.
if you go and look at his ebay feedback you will see he bought muffler bracket from somebody and now he sells bracket that looks exactly same.so it is not only me he is trying to screw.it is just the way he does it.why do R&D when you can copy.
like Bohn and Knox.I have Knox one myself.I have been around long enough to remember this deal and will never buy Bohn product but most people dont know about it.people will buy it and Bohn will keep making money out of stolen product.I dont see way of stopping this stuff.

[Roach]

sad part is this kind crap happens every day on all levels.and nothing you can do about.you can raise hell but after while people forget and everything is as usual.
here is another example.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=011&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=320058707351&rd=1,1
picture you see is my product that I make myself.this pic is not of the copy but what I made.this guys bought bunch of different kits from me and probably had local machine shop multiply them and now he sells kits.

Same thing happened to Steve (SpeedWerks) and the SV Ram-air he designed. A guy copied it and started selling it for $100 less, which means the shop pretty much has to sell it for that much now. Too bad it cost Steve a whole lot more time and money to design and make the thing than the couple hours it took the guy to copy it.

- Roach

[TWF2]

did he make that ram air or import from England?I tought it came from JH??

[Roach]

did he make that ram air or import from England?I tought it came from JH??

You're thinking of BDK ... at the time we were buying a lot of their FZR400 stuff and they made a nice 400 ram-air in carbon. So Steve came up with one for the SV and had James make the molds (if I recall correctly ... memory is fuzzy. Basically Steve and James made it, not sure who did what). BDK makes them in carbon in the UK, we have our own guy in the US that does them in fiberglass.

- Roach

[TWF2]

dont know who BDK is,I have seen fiberglass one.

[ekraft84]

You're thinking of BDK ... at the time we were buying a lot of their FZR400 stuff and they made a nice 400 ram-air in carbon. So Steve came up with one for the SV and had James make the molds (if I recall correctly ... memory is fuzzy. Basically Steve and James made it, not sure who did what). BDK makes them in carbon in the UK, we have our own guy in the US that does them in fiberglass.

- Roach

Steve sent me one of those boxes a couple years ago. It was sweet. I wish we had gotten more time to play with it before we sold the bike.

[Mongo]

I did not know you trusted Chip, you posted after me :) If you do in this case, then I'll take your word for it.

I personally don't trust his ideas about price/quality due to the helmet discussions in which he hasn't defended himself very well.

I left his post up for a couple of days already, that's the first really big clue (sounds better if you mentally sound that out like Ed Sullivan).

[92excel]

Maybe Powerstands should not be a part of WERA contingency. I never got a cert from them anyway.

[ToddClark]

(sounds better if you mentally sound that out like Ed Sullivan).yanno, you're RIGHT! :crackup:

[kjohnson]

"Just like how "powerstands" is ripping off Charlie."


Well,trying to,anyway.Sounds like the word of mouth is going in the right direction :up: .

[ekraft84]

Maybe Powerstands should not be a part of WERA contingency. I never got a cert from them anyway.

Not a bad idea ..

[STT-GUY]

If someone can explain why it's different, please do so...I always have an open mind. In the interim, I won't be buying anything from Powerstands or Bohn...and that's a shame because Bohn actually markets some great stuff that isn't stolen from others.

Ok, I'll explain why they are VERY different. (wuld ave done this yesterday but I just spnt 24 fun-filled hours with food poisning.. oh joy!)

KNOX / BOHN - This was reactionary. Action Station had a distribution agreement with Knox covering the USA (and I think Canadian) markets. Paul spent a very substaintial investment of both years of his companies time and a great deal of money launching the Knox product and building the market here in the USA. Paul put Knox "on the map" After all of his hard work Knox screwed him. There was a bunch of stuff that transpired between Knox and ActionStations that is notpublic knowledge and tere is no reason for it to become so. The owner of Knox was/is no saint and was not a blameless victim, far from it. With that said Paul can be a tough cookie too. These two guys got into a pissing match, one made a tactical error and misjudged the raction and resources of the other and the other responded in a way which allowed his business to survive using said resourcs, which in his mind was jutified given the set of circumstances. There are two different products now as a result

Pit Bull / Powerstands - This was preditory. Never was therr any distribution argeement or business reltionship, sales agreement etc... between these two. Power Stands choose a (the most) popular product, knocked them off and brought them to market.

I have not touched on the CE issue becaue there is no parallel issue with Pit Bull/Power Stands and the CE issue has been addressed in previous threads.

[Mongo]

Maybe Powerstands should not be a part of WERA contingency. I never got a cert from them anyway.

That has already been discussed but nothing final at this point.

[HondaGalToo]

Well, I'm just glad that sportbiketrackgear and others in this country are selling Knox. I won't use anything else, and they were hard to find for awhile. :)

[(diet)DrThunder]

Ok, I'll explain why they are VERY different. (wuld ave done this yesterday but I just spnt 24 fun-filled hours with food poisning.. oh joy!)

KNOX / BOHN - This was reactionary. Action Station had a distribution agreement with Knox covering the USA (and I think Canadian) markets. Paul spent a very substaintial investment of both years of his companies time and a great deal of money launching the Knox product and building the market here in the USA. Paul put Knox "on the map" After all of his hard work Knox screwed him. There was a bunch of stuff that transpired between Knox and ActionStations that is notpublic knowledge and tere is no reason for it to become so. The owner of Knox was/is no saint and was not a blameless victim, far from it. With that said Paul can be a tough cookie too. These two guys got into a pissing match, one made a tactical error and misjudged the raction and resources of the other and the other responded in a way which allowed his business to survive using said resourcs, which in his mind was jutified given the set of circumstances. There are two different products now as a result

Pit Bull / Powerstands - This was preditory. Never was therr any distribution argeement or business reltionship, sales agreement etc... between these two. Power Stands choose a (the most) popular product, knocked them off and brought them to market.

I have not touched on the CE issue becaue there is no parallel issue with Pit Bull/Power Stands and the CE issue has been addressed in previous threads.

Sorry you're not feeling well...I've been down that road, and it is _no_ fun. Drink water as soon as you can!

Ok...

I've heard all of that before, and none of it comes close to justifying duping customers into buying the product by a) copying the appearance of another product and b) faking CE certification. In this case, the predatory aspects of the situation vis a vis Knox are really only secondary in importance in comparisson to that deception. However, both issues speak to the idea that we as a comunity should not be supporting such a guy or his company.

You can't 'not touch' the CE issue in this case, because the fact that Paul would trick people into buying a safety device that they think is certified when it isn't tells us what kind of guy he is, and what he thinks about how important our safety is v. how important his wallet is. Hell, I'd have the same opinion about this situation if the _only_ problem was the fake CE stuff. The fact that he went farther by tricking us into thinking we were buying a specific prodct that we weren't just makes it worse.

If he truly felt that what he's done was justified, then he should have come clean with the buying public instead of advertising the protectors as if they were in fact the same as the Knox. Stealing the design of a product that he didn't invest in developing is not an appropriate response to a dispute about exclusive distributor rights (which is what it all boiled down to). Besides, I don't know if you remember this, but the early Bohn ads made it clear that it was the same product they'd been selling before, but with an "upgrade" away from the one-time-use padding.

It is my personal opinion that anyone doing business with Bohn is saying that faking safety certifications is ok, and they're saying that counterfeiting other people's products is ok. In the case of an outstanding guy like Brian, and an outstanding new business like STG, that makes me sad.

---------
Sorry for the thread jackish stuff; I won't go on about the Bohn stuff any more. But, I really think that it bears discussing that there are parallels between the Powerstands ripoff of Pitbull, and the Bohn stuff, particularly with regard to the whole 'community support' thing.

[(diet)DrThunder]

Well, I'm just glad that sportbiketrackgear and others in this country are selling Knox. I won't use anything else, and they were hard to find for awhile. :)

Me too! :up:

[DavieStone]

That has already been discussed but nothing final at this point.


Throw VP, Vortex and Sharkskinz on the pile of non-paying contingency co's. Pirelli on the otherhand...kicks ass with their contingency.

[Mongo]

Actually, while we will nuke a contingency program for non-payment, that hasn't been the case with powerstands. This would be for the issue we're discussing in the thread.

[Chip@KWS]

Actually, while we will nuke a contingency program for non-payment, that hasn't been the case with powerstands. This would be for the issue we're discussing in the thread.

Nuking a contingency program would be another way to make the general public aware that the copy cats are not the same as the real thing.


That would be really cool...

[Putter]

Buffalo Chip, I respect what you and KWS are doing. :up:

[Chip@KWS]

Buffalo Chip, I respect what you and KWS are doing. :up:

We ain't doing anything....respect the person who comes to market with original ideas. :up:

[Dave K]

I disagree. Nuking a contingency for a brand that some racers use because of a serious f@ck up by the parent company is cutting off the nose to spite the face.
People use Powerstands tirewarmers and their stands and if they sign up for the program and win, they should enjoy the fruits of their labours.

I'll be using Powerstands tirewarmers this coming year. I won't be using their tire rack.

You see, it's a personal choice.

[RacerTech]

Ok, I'll explain

I think the word you're looking for is "rationalize".

the other responded in a way which allowed his business to survive using said resourcs, which in his mind was jutified given the set of circumstances. There are two different products now as a result

Ok ... SO, it's ok to rip off another company's design and use fraudulent and disgusting business practices as long as you're a salesman that had a business disagreement with the manufacturer of the actual, original product, then needed a way to keep making money without selling the actual product.

I understand now. Makes perfect sense.

- Rt

[nig]

I'll be using Powerstands tirewarmers this coming year. I won't be using their tire rack.


Did you already buy the warmers? Or sign up for contingency or whatever?

[Dave K]

I'll be calling in my order this week for the warmers. Why? Because they were straight shooters with me, the product seems right and the price point.

[GixxerBlade]

I don't think you even need to own a Powerstand product to get contingency. Just slap some stickers on the side of the bike. At least thats the way it was last year.

[BC]

:crackhead:

[KovzR6]

I don't think you even need to own a Powerstand product to get contingency. Just slap some stickers on the side of the bike. At least thats the way it was last year.



your right....... but IF you get your certs, you can only use 1 cert per purchase.... not the total amount you have

[KovzR6]

Throw VP, Vortex and Sharkskinz on the pile of non-paying contingency co's. .



vortex pays... you just have to call them. they have everything on file :up:

[Dave K]

I don't think you even need to own a Powerstand product to get contingency. Just slap some stickers on the side of the bike. At least thats the way it was last year.

That is tantamount to theft.

[nig]

That is tantamount to theft.

Oh the irony :D

[Dave K]

Oh the irony :D

Yeap. But I live my life by my word. I try not to screw others and I expect the same from others. Powerstands did something less than honest on a product and as such I'll stay away from those products. They offer a solid tire warmer that seems to have what I need at an attractive price. . .

[GixxerBlade]

Yeap. But I live my life by my word. I try not to screw others and I expect the same from others. Powerstands did something less than honest on a product and as such I'll stay away from those products. They offer a solid tire warmer that seems to have what I need at an attractive price. . .

How is it theft DK?

Powerstands - 1st-$75, 2nd-$50, 3rd-$35, 4th-$25, 5th-$20 in certificates good for stands or tables in all classes except Vintage and Solos. Must fill out once a year registration form and run sticker on both sides of bike preferably swingarm. Must list Powerstands as a sponsor. No product usage required. Available at selected events check schedule.

[Dave K]

Missed that. I screwed up.

And it's just Dave. :D

[GixxerBlade]

I know but DK sounds a lot like Dik. :D

[Dave K]

Dick would work. :D

DK is a long story that we don't have time to go into here. :D

[holzerd]

Dick would work. :D

DK is a long story that we don't have time to go into here. :D

DK = "Drift King."


I learned that watching a really bad movie.

[Mongo]

That is tantamount to theft.

That's the way we set it up with the sponsor so it's actually just fine ;)

[Mongo]

DK is Dead Kennedy's. That is all :D

[dtalbott]

They offer a solid tire warmer that seems to have what I need at an attractive price. . .

You're kidding me, right?

[Dave K]

You're kidding me, right?

Nope, a 125 (supermoto) sized tire digital warmer below $400. Same price for 250.

Ain't free but. . .

[418]

Nope, a 125 (supermoto) sized tire digital warmer below $400. Same price for 250.

Ain't free but. . .

What'ya be racing Dave? :)

[RoadRacerX]

What'ya be racing Dave? :)

Big Wheel, by Hasbro. :D

[(diet)DrThunder]

Yeap. But I live my life by my word. I try not to screw others and I expect the same from others. Powerstands did something less than honest on a product and as such I'll stay away from those products. They offer a solid tire warmer that seems to have what I need at an attractive price. . .

IMHO you are screwing Charlie at Pit Bull by supporting these thieves. How many different people would they have to steal from before you'd decide not to buy the tire warmers?

Sorry Dave...I love you like a brother, but I'm not with you on this one.

[Dave K]

Charlie does not produce tire warmers.

[418]

Big Wheel, by Hasbro. :D

I guess so. :)

Apparently, I'm not cool enough to get an actual answer.

[YamahaRick]

Big Wheel, by Hasbro. :D
Correction: Small Wheel ... he petitioned to stay down in status for another year. :-)

[(diet)DrThunder]

Whatever it is, I can't wait to get out there with DaveK this year! wahoo!

[HPPT]

We are commited to telling the nearly 20,000 riders that will ride with us under the STT umbrella this year to all buy Pit Bull stands. THAT's way cool!! :up:
OK, I know I have been out of the loop for a while but where the heck did you find 20,000 members?!

[Paigebert]

He's using the CCS calculator. Entries vs actual riders makes no difference. :D

[HPPT]

He's using the CCS calculator. Entries vs actual riders makes no difference. :D

LOL @ CCS calculator. The evil is strong in you, woman.

[STT-GUY]

OK, I know I have been out of the loop for a while but where the heck did you find 20,000 members?!

Check again... 20,000 riders. Not individual members. But 20,000 opportunites to say buy Pit Bull is a lot.. and all to folks who need the product.

[HPPT]

Check again... 20,000 riders. Not individual members. But 20,000 opportunites to say buy Pit Bull is a lot.. and all to folks who need the product.

OK, I understand the 20,000 opportunities. That makes sense.

I still disagree with the 20,000 riders. If everyone decided to buy the product, there wouldn't be 20,000 sales. Not that it matters.

[Smilodon]

Drat! I bought Powerstands a while back due to the ability to "break down" the stands which solved a limited storage space issue I had with one-piece stands. Now I feel like I've joined the evil empire! They're even painted black! :eek:

At the time, I thought it was a very original design! Kind of ironic given current circumstances. Now I'm wondering if they didn't get that one from somewhere else as well... :rolleyes:

Guess I'll have to get me one of those Simpson, Darth Vader style helmets...:p

[powerstands]

Check again... 20,000 riders. Not individual members. But 20,000 opportunites to say buy Pit Bull is a lot.. and all to folks who need the product.
Monte,

We respect your (changing of) opinions and cherish the times when you, Bonnie and STT helped promoted PowerStands.

For old memory sake, here's a STT PowerStands winner picture you sent us.
http://www.powerstands.com/images/showpictures/customers%20bikes/sportbike%20track%20time%20rodney%20lequia%20stand _winner.jpg

[ToddClark]

ouch

[Chris]

ouch

+1

[Chip@KWS]

Wow.....Customer Relations 101....:up:


P.S. - Not a single racer took me up on my offer, but several called and asked questions about the Pit Bull Tire Tree and Pit Bull has informed me that sales on the tree have been very good. Thank you all for supporting one of the truely great companies in our sport!

[ubermoto71]

So, KRJR was at a STT event, and won a stand? :D

Pitbull stand owner/user/seller/supporter :up:

[Lizard 1]

I haven't read every post in the last 6 pages, but in all honesty, this is all a fact of life nowadays.

Company spends bookoo bucks R&Ding a product (PitBull) and some lame ass company comes along and copies it.

I want to say this is a similar situation to what I experienced as an Oakley guy when all the knock-offs come out of the woodwork. This is not really the same as the Powerstand seems to have a few different things on it to actually make it a little different, but they essentially copied it down, tweeked it enough to avoid any issues in court (PitBull will loose their shirts in court if they try and pursue anything legally) as they will be able to use 100 different examples of helmet companies that copied Arai's design, Handle Bar companies that copied Renthal's designs, Boot companies that copied Daytona's designs, etc. It is the same story over and over again.

At Oakley, we always stated that companies that copy our design are a sign of flattery. PitBull makes a GREAT product, have a GREAT customer service, have a GREAT crew of people working for them. It is only natural that another company comes into the fray with a similar offer. Pitbull saw the need for better built stands and even though they essentially copied a design made by someone else, they developed a product that was vastly different and had something to follow up with such a great product.

Powerstands has been around for some time. They saw a need to change a few things, but they cut corners and copied others. The deal is that they will succeed or fail based on what the customers want/need. If customers think their stuff is a total rip-off, they will send Powerstands packing.

However, as awful a deal as it is, they will probably succeed in that the customer will buy what is cheaper whether it is truly better or not. How many of the racers out there are wearing KBC helmets? How many street guys are wearing Vega helmets and using other Korean knock-off stuff that is simply taking a design and tweeking it enough to sell it at a cheaper rate all the while using inferior components?

It is a fact of life in the motorcycle industry. Don't even get me started with the Korean bike knock-offs, but how many of you have Pit bikes that are CRF or TTR knock-offs?

Doesn't make it right, but it happens and we are all guilty of buying copied stuff and we'll continue doing so. Sure, it sucks PitBull gets copied. However, they still have a GREAT product, GREAT customer service and a GREAT crew. They'll still be around. Honda is, Arai is, and all the other copied companies out there...

[tony 340]

I Like pitbull, like that they have a contigency program, love their products, and think they're a great company. Love my stand. Love what they do for the sport/hobby. Going to continue to support Pitbull myself.

I have to be objective here, because that's how I think:

What kind of R and D do some of you think goes into a tirestand?

Better yet, how many different designs can you make for a tirestand without copying the same concept?

Most handymen with metal experience could build one of those in a good weekend. Lots of people on here could.

[rugbymook]

I have to be objective here, because that's how I think:

What kind of R and D do some of you think goes into a tirestand?

Better yet, how many different designs can you make for a tirestand without copying the same concept?

Most handymen with metal experience could build one of those in a good weekend. Lots of people on here could.

Exactly......

Then why did they have to copy the design EXACTLY as Charlie and PitBull designed it??? I've seen quite a few tire trees. Only one was a copy.

[Hawk518]

Pit Bull good on my book.

3 One armed rear stands, 1 Foward handle rear, 1 Fork lift & Converter. And I got was some free stickers! Kidding-

Plus theystill use a Hawk to display their product! Which shows they have taste.

[Seven+2 1's]

So, KRJR was at a STT event, and won a stand? :D

:crackup: :crackup: That's the first thing I though of! :crackup:

[mad brad]

[QUOTE=powerstands;1534288]Monte,

We respect your (changing of) opinions and cherish the times when you, Bonnie and STT helped promoted PowerStands.

For old memory sake, here's a STT PowerStands winner picture you sent us.


i feel that monte can change his mind whenever he likes.


and you, suck.

pit bull for me.

and i like woodcraft.

[Chip@KWS]

I Like pitbull, like that they have a contigency program, love their products, and think they're a great company. Love my stand. Love what they do for the sport/hobby. Going to continue to support Pitbull myself.

I have to be objective here, because that's how I think:

What kind of R and D do some of you think goes into a tirestand?

Better yet, how many different designs can you make for a tirestand without copying the same concept?

Most handymen with metal experience could build one of those in a good weekend. Lots of people on here could.

Stop buy our pit at any AMA race and I would be happy to show you the Tree. The Tire tree is as unique as you can make one. Charlie put a ton of effort into finalizing its design.

[Britt]

It would take a weekend to just make the brackets as nice....:)
And not many (IF any) could come close to the quality of the TIG welds.

[TSWebster]

What are the significant differences between the Pitbull steering damper and the Scott's or GPR?
Steve

[RoadRacerX]

It would take a weekend to just make the brackets as nice....:)
And not many (IF any) could come close to the quality of the TIG welds.

Oh yeah? What do you know about welding? :D :Poke:





j/k folks. Britt could weld up a broken heart or the crack of dawn. No, Bradley- not THAT dawn. :D

[ekraft84]

Pit Bull. :up:

[Lizard 1]

I Like pitbull, like that they have a contigency program, love their products, and think they're a great company. Love my stand. Love what they do for the sport/hobby. Going to continue to support Pitbull myself.

I have to be objective here, because that's how I think:

What kind of R and D do some of you think goes into a tirestand?

Better yet, how many different designs can you make for a tirestand without copying the same concept?

Most handymen with metal experience could build one of those in a good weekend. Lots of people on here could.

Do this:

Take the time and effort to sit down and draw up a design that obviously wasn't done in the first go round. It probably took a few times at designing something like the tire tree and it wasn't a first shot deal. Next, develop it to be something other than design and make it into a real piece. Many times, what is designed cannot be produced efficiently as there are elements that become a problem at time of mass production.

Then, once that design is figured out to be best for production, develop a test mule and see if it will work over a period of time under a set of circumstances that it will be used under. Typically, more severe than normal to cover any issues. Finally, go into production with your product.

Sure, it is a little longer and maybe a little less than I described, but you get the idea.

Now, take this route:

Take a developed, tested and proven piece and copy it with a few minor tweeks and call it your own. Sure, you need to research production costs, but if it is already developed, you have a much easier way to go.

I will agree that this whole deal is a bit of a "Pot calling the Kettle black" type of thing as PitBull has a version of the Scott style steering damper and their rear stands and front stands when first developed were essentially copies of an idea not of their own, but it is pretty hard to swallow a pill when a company does exactly the same thing and calls it better or calls it their own design.

In the end, I think it is sometimes hard to get over personal emotions that are linked with some things we use and the people we meet. Chip is apparently very emotional when it comes to PitBull based on probably some great relationships he's developed over the years. Now, if KWS gets a better sponsorship offer from Powerstands, will it change his mind? Probably not as he's developed a strong relationship with PitBull, but if the team changes to Powerstands, he will most likely not be as loud in his protest.

Facts are this - shit is made and there are many companies that take that one idea and make it better. It happened with the car. Are we all going to ditch the cars we own because they weren't the first to develop and make the machines we all need and use? I mean, Ford didn't make the first car so, should we all call him the same as we are calling Powerstands?

I think it is a little different as there are those who make things that are a need. You need a set of race plastic and there are going to be many others out there doing the same thing. Do they copy Airtech or Sharkskins, etc? No, they take stock stuff and make a fiberglass or similar copy of what SUZUKI has made and put their name on it and call it good stuff. Is Suzuki pissed that they essentially copied what took a ton of time to research and develop? I doubt it...

Buy what you want and what works for you. If PitBull has been a great supporter of your program, cool. Carry on with supporting those who support you. I have Pitbull stuff and think it is pretty damn good. I also think Powerstand has some cool stuff, as well. Support the company you feel best deserves your money. In the end, that company will still be at the top like they were before or they may be at the bottom like they were, but they'll still be around nonetheless.

[(diet)DrThunder]

Any of the apologists here would do well to notice the part where one of the Powerstands pics appears to contain an actual Pit Bull tree that has been painted black, and displayed as a Powerstands product.

For me, none of the other issues matter...this one thing defines the character of the company and of the man who owns it.

[Chip@KWS]

What are the significant differences between the Pitbull steering damper and the Scott's or GPR?
Steve

Center-hub design with two paddles for even load distribution, valving in bottom of housing for instant-on hydraulics (air bubbles aren't the first thing moving through the valve), 10 clicks from soft to hard, No speed or sweep variation (what you set is what you get), rebuildable. Mount system with hinge for upper triple clamp and spherical ball for frame mount accounts for misalignments in X, Y and Z directions and yaw, pitch and roll rotational axes, hinge allows unit to move out of the way for access under gas tank.

[Wade Parish]

Is that all? What a blatant rip-off!


;)

[ekraft84]

Center-hub design with two paddles for even load distribution, valving in bottom of housing for instant-on hydraulics (air bubbles aren't the first thing moving through the valve), 10 clicks from soft to hard, No speed or sweep variation (what you set is what you get), rebuildable. Mount system with hinge for upper triple clamp and spherical ball for frame mount accounts for misalignments in X, Y and Z directions and yaw, pitch and roll rotational axes, hinge allows unit to move out of the way for access under gas tank.

Boo-yah. :up:

[Spooner]

What Chip said-the pit bull damper is much smoother than scotts or GPR, plus they don't puke the oil out immediately like GPR's..

[powerstands]

hi everyone,

sorry I have been away until now. There are several issues on the Pit Bull vs. PowerStands discussion which I would like to clarify:

Patent & knock off issue:
1. Tire tree / Wheel tree / Apparatus to suspend wheel by its hub is & has been an "utility" function design that has been in the PUBLIC DOMAIN and therefore not patentable with regards to US Patent and Trademark (www.uspto.gov) laws.

2. Pit Bull claimed having patent on the tire tree when in fact Pit Bull does not have any patent on the tire tree. Not even a "pending" patent application with the US PTO.

3. PB claimed PowerStands Kingpin wheel tree is inferior to their product. Kingpin was designed by CalPoly Pomona engineering apprentice with consultation of the engineering professor, we are confident it may be even tougher than pit bull product.

4. PB claimed knock off of their design. Kingpin wheel tree is an expansion of PowerStands product offering and was in development/prototype stage when Pit Bull released their tire tree. Kingpin has features that allows for very compact storage and transportation, which has always been the key feature in PowerStands product line. PB tire tree is 'Over Sized 2' at shipping bill rate of 70lbs. with UPS. Kingpin is only 25lbs actual weight and not over sized for UPS. They are similar products with similar functions, but we preferred our own Kingpin design from our own R&D.

5. US made & Chinese made. PowerStands is owned by a USA corporation based in Los Angeles, California, with USA share holders & USA employees. PowerStands supports racers, racing teams and organizations ONLY in USA. ALL PowerStands products are designed in USA and manufactured in China, and Taiwan by PowerStands affiliated factories. We guarantee all PowerStands product to be very well made with quality & durability that meet or exceed PB products.

Industry Background:
PB has enjoyed lacked of competitions in the industry for quite some time. When PowerStands first came to the market in 02, we were threatened by PB about "potential" patent infringement on their stand designs. PB had no patent of any kind in 02. We continued to challenge PB in the market place.

Feb 21, 2006, PB got their patent No. "US 7,000,901 B1" from US Patent and Trademark Office (www.uspto.gov) for their 'new front stand'. PB then sent a cease & desist letter to almost every stand manufacturer, PowerStands, Vortex Racing included about their patent and "infringement" on their patent. "YES", PB got a patent, but "NO" their patent is NON-DEFENSIBLE in the courts. In short, the keywords are "prior art" & "public domain". The stand design has been in the public domain prior to PB receiving their patent.

We had a very open discussion with PB's attorney Larry W. Brantley about PB non-defensible patent at the Law Offices of Waddey&Patterson P.C.. Here's their phone number if anyone wishes to confirm. 256-535-4400, Huntsville, Alabama.

MARKETING:
Since 2003 PowerStands has aggressively and actively seek to sponsor racing organizations, racers & racing teams, & track day organizations. At the time we've often came across racers/teams/organizations whom have tried but didn't even get a return call from PB about sponsorship.

In time, PB finally felt the heat created by PowerStands and started calling on some of the organizations whom were sponsored by PowerStands at the time. Trackaddix, LoneStarTrackDays, TrackDaz, JenningsGP, SportbikeTrackTime to name a few, switched from PowerStands to PB stands. We felt PB probably would not have made the moves had we not been actively capturing the market share.

We apologize to those of you whom may have had bad experiences with PowerStands products from before. PowerStands did gone thru some initial growing pains with less than perfect product features & hardwares and have thus improved and matured thru continuous product improvements.

PowerStands stride to make all of our products more user friendly with better features, quality and lower costs. We are proud to be sponsoring partner of various racers/teams/organizations and we will continue to do so in the foreseeable future.

Thank you for taking the time to 'hear' our side of the story.

Sincerely,

Charlie Hon
VP Marketing
PowerStands

[Chip@KWS]

PB claimed knock off of their design. Kingpin wheel tree is an expansion of PowerStands product offering and was in development/prototype stage when Pit Bull released their tire tree.

1.) Can you give me a date as to when the Pitbull tire tree was "released?"

Remember that before you answer that I saw the original drawings of the stands and I was there the first time they saw the light of day.

PB claimed PowerStands Kingpin wheel tree is inferior to their product. Kingpin was designed by CalPoly Pomona engineering apprentice with consultation of the engineering professor, we are confident it may be even tougher than pit bull product.


Mechanical engineering thesis project? Maybe the student should have been taking a class in business ethics as well....

MARKETING

You are posting in a 145 post thread with 6000 page views in which 99% of the content is in support of Pit Bull. A company in which you admit to stealing their designs and ideas...and you want to talk about marketing?

How about filling in the gaps about how your company stands on there topics:

1.) Ethics

2.) Original Design

3.) Honesty

4.) Design

5.) Manufacturing

6.) Integrity

[mad brad]

:rolleyes:

[John29]

I want to hear the explanation about the painted Pit Bull tire tree I saw portrayed as being a PS product on the PS website...

[ToddClark]

I want to hear the explanation about the painted Pit Bull tire tree I saw portrayed as being a PS product on the PS website...

Thats the VP Marketing guy posting up. Think he's actually gonna post up truth's?

[Johnny B]

http://resthome.50megs.com/lurk.gif

[Chip@KWS]

Thats the VP Marketing guy posting up. Think he's actually gonna post up truth's?

Note: This thread is a marketing nightmare.....this thread is marketing suicide, but the "VP of Marketing" keeps pulling this thread back to the top....I think this speak volumes about the "VP of Marketing."

[dtalbott]

Note: This thread is a marketing nightmare.....this thread is marketing suicide, but the "VP of Marketing" keeps pulling this thread back to the top....I think this speak volumes about the "VP of Marketing."

Maybe he's an apprentice VP of Marketing who hasn't consulted with his marketing professor.

[Dutch]

Thanks for the reminder Powerstands dude. I had just about forgotten about this whole issue.....

[Hyperdyne]

You know it must really suck when you find out the most racers are actually well educated and aren't street squids.

It must suck even more when you find out many of those racers are actually practicing attorneys, engineers, and industry insiders.

[TrackStar]

Wow...I'm going to step out on a limb and say this is the stupidest thing I've seen in a very long time.

I dont know the owner of PitBull, I've spoken to him on the phone for a minute and he was a very nice guy. From what I've read here they give very strong support to many racers.

Now lets REALLY break this down. You guys are throwing a pissy fit about a tire tree and stands being "copied" by Power Stands. What about the other 30+ companies who make stands that are no more imaginative or different than anything Powerstands makes? It's a stand, theres only so far you can really go with it. It's a simple lever with a place to balance an object.

Now lets go to the tire tree. Did they copy it? Hell maybe but it seems if the information is correct and it weighs that much less it isnt a direct knockoff. Something must be different.

This is America guys, a place where people work very hard everyday to take the status quo and improve it to make our lives better. This is good for the consumer and for manufacturers. Competition creates improvement in products.

I dont see anyone on here bashing any of the race body companies who make their living copying someone elses work. yes they are all a little different but they use the same materials and the same shapes. Who made the first race body? Maybe they should sue. Who made the first inline 4? The first tire warmer? The first adjustable shock? The first steering damper? The first adjustable rearset? The first plastic kneepuck?

All of these products have been copied, reworked, improved upon over the years to bring us all CHOICES in the market...but we wouldnt want to pick on PB for taking an existing design and improving it like with the steering damper would we?

Sorry but I like having choices.

I know alot of guys who got sponsored by PowerStands and they helped them out a bunch. Gave them incredible pricing on tire warmers and other goods. Guys who have to pinch pennies to race got support from them when no one else would even look at them. That goes a long way with alot of people.

Flame me for not jumping on the bandwagon and slapping asses with you guys but this is lame.

[Roach]

You know it must really suck when you find out the most racers are actually well educated and aren't street squids.

It must suck even more when you find out many of those racers are actually practicing attorneys, engineers, and industry insiders.

Except, in all honesty .. none of that matters.

The average racer buys the cheapest thing available. If they can get a stand for 30% less than pit bull, they really could care less about intellectual property. We see it every day (not with powerstands stands - we don't sell them, but just in general when it comes to pretty much anything). You'll see a lot of powerstands at the racetrack because they're cheaper.

A lot of the "regulars" on this BBS don't even race, or don't any more. Or, they're "industry insiders" (us included) as you say, which makes them biased, especially if they're selling the product in question. They don't exactly represent the bulk of the racing consumer.

- Roach

[jigmoore]

we are confident it may be even tougher than pit bull product

now that's a lot of confidence.

but we preferred our own Kingpin design from our own R&D

i'll ask again.....what r&d? just describe some of the testing....we're curious.

[Hyperdyne]

Except, in all honesty .. none of that matters.

The average racer buys the cheapest thing available. If they can get a stand for 30% less than pit bull, they really could care less about intellectual property. We see it every day (not with powerstands stands - we don't sell them, but just in general when it comes to pretty much anything). You'll see a lot of powerstands at the racetrack because they're cheaper.

- Roach


I disagree. There are many stands much cheaper than PB or PS. Most racers will buy what the see other racers and race winners using at the track. In the case of Powerstands, if I can help an honest guy keep his honest bucks, I will.

And I'm with John. I am still waiting for an answer to the painted PB stand in PS's advertising.

[Roach]

I disagree. There are many stands much cheaper than PB or PS. Most racers will buy what the see other racers and race winners using at the track. .

I sell 10x more Vortex stands than I do Pit Bull. They're 20% cheaper.

Just an FYI.

- Roach

[dtalbott]

I sell 10x more Vortex stands than I do Pit Bull. They're 20% cheaper.

Which one do you like better?

[powerstands]

Mechanical engineering thesis project? Maybe the student should have been taking a class in business ethics as well....

How about filling in the gaps about how your company stands on there topics:
1.) Ethics, honesty, integrity


did you meant business ethics as in Pit Bull claimed having patent on the tire tree when in fact Pit Bull does not have any patent on the tire tree. Not even a "pending" patent application with the US PTO?

or business ethic as PB in threatening PowerStands about "potential" patent infringement on their stand designs when we first came to the market in 02. and Honesty as in when in fact PB had no patent of any kind, but just plain old threatening its competition?

Or Business ethic & integrity in your case of aggressively bashing your sponsor's competition by claiming business ethics, original design, etc?

2.) Original Design
In short, the keywords are "prior art" & "public domain". Also, PowerStands Kingpin has features that allows for very compact storage and transportation whereas PB tire tree ships in an over sized 2 box.


5)Manufacturing
I have covered this issue here: US made & Chinese made. PowerStands is owned by a USA corporation based in Los Angeles, California, with USA share holders & USA employees. PowerStands supports racers, racing teams and organizations ONLY in USA. ALL PowerStands products are designed in USA and manufactured in China, and Taiwan by PowerStands affiliated factories. We guarantee all PowerStands product to be very well made with quality & durability that meet or exceed PB products.


You are posting in a 145 post thread with 6000 page views in which 99% of the content is in support of Pit Bull. A company in which you admit to stealing their designs and ideas...and you want to talk about marketing?
..Note: This thread is a marketing nightmare.....this thread is marketing suicide, but the "VP of Marketing" keeps pulling this thread back to the top...

We are stating the FACTS to that 1% of audiences that are objective and not sponsor biased as you. We have received many calls & orders from the 1% people having read posts regarding PowerStands vs. Pit Bull. We have sold out of the stands.

PB claims = accusations without proof. PowerStands Kingpin has features that allows for very compact storage and transportation, which has always been the key feature in PowerStands product line.

The Kingpin wheel tree picture on our site claimed by PB as their product is another PB's anti-competitiveness tactic. We have solidworks drawings, bought materials and have prototypes made, took it to the powder coater, etc.

Remember PB claimed many issues against PowerStands as I have stated.

[powerstands]

now that's a lot of confidence.


the last sentence of 5):...We guarantee all PowerStands product to be very well made with quality & durability that meet or exceed PB products.

[STT-GUY]

I sell 10x more Vortex stands than I do Pit Bull. They're 20% cheaper.

Just an FYI.

- Roach

We sell 10 to 1 (actually it's closer to 30:1) Pit Bull vs. other stands because, IMO our staff are all clearly able demonstrate to our customers the value of a superior product.

It's amazing that when we explain to a customer that a stand is (at least) 50% better and only 20% more investment, the vast majority choose the better value of the Pit Bull. Most people don't want cheap.... they want good.

I guess it's the difference between taking orders and selling product. (edit-I didn't mean for this to sound smart assed, we try to talk with every stand customer and explain the options/product avilable and not everyone does that)

I'll admit, my first stands years ago were the LP POS's... I wish someone would have talked me into investing a little more coin. It would have prevented more than one "stand crash" in my shop and pit.

[STT-GUY]

the last sentence of 5):...We guarantee all PowerStands product to be very well made with quality & durability that meet or exceed PB products.

Meet me in INDY this weekend and I'll pry the shovel out of your hands so you stop digging yourself deeper and deeper... DUDE.. LET THIS ONE GO!

Read Dutch's post again........

[powerstands]

Meet me in INDY this weekend and I'll pry the shovel out of your hands so you stop digging yourself deeper and deeper... DUDE.. LET THIS ONE GO!

If stating the facts and clarifying biased claims against PowerStands meant digging it deeper, maybe I will get a bigger shovel.

[STT-GUY]

If stating the facts and clarifying biased claims against PowerStands meant digging it deeper, maybe I will get a bigger shovel.

As you wish... Win the battle and lose the war.

Just remember....... you can't spend ego.

[Handicapped Racer]

I wish i was as eloquent as the rest of you fine folks, but here's an idea and a revelation. Since indy is all i've heard about since I entered into this business, and i just happen to see Pitbull on the vendors list how come Power Stands isn't going to be represented, it would easy to quash this issue at indy, setting your products right next to each other so you can show us visually afflicted idiots, how your tire stands ARE not an exact copy of Pit bull's. Track star made a good point, everyone is copying everyone, the only difference is they at least made an attempt, not to produce an EXACT replica of their competitions product. Hey good luck to ya and hope to ee you in Indy?

[powerstands]

I wish i was as eloquent as the rest of you fine folks, but here's an idea and a revelation. Since indy is all i've heard about since I entered into this business, and i just happen to see Pitbull on the vendors list how come Power Stands isn't going to be represented,

PowerStands are distributed by Tucker Rocky, and Western PowerSports. You'll see 6 Corona Extra Honda CBR1000RR bikes at INDY on PowerStands, 1 bike may be in Parts Unlimited booth.

PowerStands will be displayed in Kenny Roberts/Hotbodies Racing booth also.
Larry Pegram Racing/Leo Vince Ducati bikes will be displayed either in Leo Vince or Ducati booth.
http://pegramracing.com/images/studio_02.jpg

[Handicapped Racer]

PowerStands are distributed by Tucker Rocky, and Western PowerSports. You'll see 6 Corona Extra Honda CBR1000RR bikes at INDY on PowerStands, 1 bike may be in Parts Unlimited booth.

PowerStands will be displayed in Kenny Roberts/Hotbodies Racing booth also.
Larry Pegram Racing/Leo Vince Ducati bikes will be displayed either in Leo Vince or Ducati booth.
http://pegramracing.com/images/studio_02.jpg

So glad you answered that question, i see those classes on avoidance has worked out so well.:up:

[cyclenut]

hi everyone,


we are confident it may be even tougher than pit bull product.


PowerStands



Somewhat in the range of perhapsibility?

[Handicapped Racer]

[QUOTE=powerstands;1493682]Accepting 07 racer sponsorship.


http://www.powerstands.com/images/kingpin.jpg
Available Feb 07.



This is a simple YES or NO question, is the stand pictured on the right actually a putbull stand powder coated?

[B.Curvin]

I'll admit, my first stands years ago were the LP POS's... I wish someone would have talked me into investing a little more coin. It would have prevented more than one "stand crash" in my shop and pit.


+1 +1.
But at the time I saved FORTY DOLLARS over

the Pit Bulls stands. Wasn't even close to worth it. When I got later bought

PB stands I think I threw my LP stand away. What a piece of crap.

I caught my SV several times falling off the LP stand.


and didn't catch it once.


BTW. My wife can use the PB stand one handed. She couldn't use the LP at all.

[cyclenut]

I sold my old LP stand at Mid Ohio this year for $5, I think the guy was gonna use it on a moped racer he had.

[Chip@KWS]

did you meant business ethics as in Pit Bull claimed having patent on the tire tree when in fact Pit Bull does not have any patent on the tire tree. Not even a "pending" patent application with the US PTO?

or business ethic as PB in threatening PowerStands about "potential" patent infringement on their stand designs when we first came to the market in 02. and Honesty as in when in fact PB had no patent of any kind, but just plain old threatening its competition?

Or Business ethic & integrity in your case of aggressively bashing your sponsor's competition by claiming business ethics, original design, etc?

2.) Original Design
In short, the keywords are "prior art" & "public domain". Also, PowerStands Kingpin has features that allows for very compact storage and transportation whereas PB tire tree ships in an over sized 2 box.


5)Manufacturing
I have covered this issue here: US made & Chinese made. PowerStands is owned by a USA corporation based in Los Angeles, California, with USA share holders & USA employees. PowerStands supports racers, racing teams and organizations ONLY in USA. ALL PowerStands products are designed in USA and manufactured in China, and Taiwan by PowerStands affiliated factories. We guarantee all PowerStands product to be very well made with quality & durability that meet or exceed PB products.



We are stating the FACTS to that 1% of audiences that are objective and not sponsor biased as you. We have received many calls & orders from the 1% people having read posts regarding PowerStands vs. Pit Bull. We have sold out of the stands.

PB claims = accusations without proof. PowerStands Kingpin has features that allows for very compact storage and transportation, which has always been the key feature in PowerStands product line.

The Kingpin wheel tree picture on our site claimed by PB as their product is another PB's anti-competitiveness tactic. We have solidworks drawings, bought materials and have prototypes made, took it to the powder coater, etc.

Remember PB claimed many issues against PowerStands as I have stated.


So basiclly what your saying is.....Yes you stole the designs, but its not illegal (as determined by you) so what you did is not wrong.

Kinda like, Yes I shot the guy, but I didn't get caught so its Ok.

Your only claim to original design is that the product breaks down into a smaller package so that you save money shipping it.......WOW!! Thats a feature I always look for in a racing product..Shipping size! :rolleyes:

Having seen your product, the main reason why it fails is that you have made the part modular, thus creating a weak point, where as the Pit Bull product is a solid piece that is built to be used at the track not for the convieance of shipping. Once again, your company's main focus is price point where Pit Bull's focus is on quality, customer care, service after the sale, and original design.

Marketing......I agree with you. Lets keep this thread to the top for a few months. :beer:

[BC]

Wow...I'm going to step out on a limb and say this is the stupidest thing I've seen in a very long time.

I dont know the owner of PitBull, I've spoken to him on the phone for a minute and he was a very nice guy. From what I've read here they give very strong support to many racers.

Now lets REALLY break this down. You guys are throwing a pissy fit about a tire tree and stands being "copied" by Power Stands. What about the other 30+ companies who make stands that are no more imaginative or different than anything Powerstands makes? It's a stand, theres only so far you can really go with it. It's a simple lever with a place to balance an object.

Now lets go to the tire tree. Did they copy it? Hell maybe but it seems if the information is correct and it weighs that much less it isnt a direct knockoff. Something must be different.

This is America guys, a place where people work very hard everyday to take the status quo and improve it to make our lives better. This is good for the consumer and for manufacturers. Competition creates improvement in products.

I dont see anyone on here bashing any of the race body companies who make their living copying someone elses work. yes they are all a little different but they use the same materials and the same shapes. Who made the first race body? Maybe they should sue. Who made the first inline 4? The first tire warmer? The first adjustable shock? The first steering damper? The first adjustable rearset? The first plastic kneepuck?

All of these products have been copied, reworked, improved upon over the years to bring us all CHOICES in the market...but we wouldnt want to pick on PB for taking an existing design and improving it like with the steering damper would we?

Sorry but I like having choices.

I know alot of guys who got sponsored by PowerStands and they helped them out a bunch. Gave them incredible pricing on tire warmers and other goods. Guys who have to pinch pennies to race got support from them when no one else would even look at them. That goes a long way with alot of people.

Flame me for not jumping on the bandwagon and slapping asses with you guys but this is lame.

+1 Well said

[Chip@KWS]

To all the guys who say that everybody copies everybody and we should all just get over it.....

Pit Bull didn't copy anybody when they first made there stands.....they improved a product that was at the time, a total piece of crap. You couldn't buy a good stand back then if you wanted to...

Woodcraft didn't copy anybody. There stands are awesome.....and completely original.

[C. Corder]

[QUOTE=powerstands;1493682]Accepting


This is a simple YES or NO question, is the stand pictured on the right actually a putbull stand powder coated?

This question will continue to be avoided because you see, a thief wont admit that he is a thief. The only difference between a common thief and someone who copies others products is at least the common thief knows he is a scumbag.

PB makes the only two stroke work table that I know of so as a tribute to this thread, I will be painting mine black and coveing it with PB stickers. Since that is ok with your ads there should be no problem.

Friends dont let friends use Power Stands.

[Kris87]

i dont get the smaller fold up/storage explanation. my pit bull tree folds up exactly like the one pictured above. it also didnt come in two boxes. it came in one box, folded up like the picture. so maybe that line is bullshit too.

[Hyperdyne]

PowerStands are distributed by Tucker Rocky, and Western PowerSports. You'll see 6 Corona Extra Honda CBR1000RR bikes at INDY on PowerStands, 1 bike may be in Parts Unlimited booth.

PowerStands will be displayed in Kenny Roberts/Hotbodies Racing booth also.
Larry Pegram Racing/Leo Vince Ducati bikes will be displayed either in Leo Vince or Ducati booth.
http://pegramracing.com/images/studio_02.jpg

I would hope so.. That's the idea behind sponsorship. You give them money and product and they display it.

But I bet I can walk by those pits at mid-ohio and hear someone wishing they had their pit-bull back.

[G Dawg]

And I will be talking with Leo Vince about this, as well as the Worm if he's there:down:
I always pulled for Larry, I wonder what he has to say about this, except "Show me the money":tut:

[Chip@KWS]

Larry won't be there....The Millennium/KWS Suzuki will be in the LeoVince booth.

[rugbymook]

i'll ask again.....what r&d? just describe some of the testing....we're curious.

Which brand of flat-black spraypaint to use that would cover up the Pit Bull stickers on the tire tree perhaps??

[G Dawg]

Larry won't be there....The Millennium/KWS Suzuki will be in the LeoVince booth.
How many booths are you going to be in:p
Just let me know where Powershit Ripoffs will be;)

[Chip@KWS]

How many booths are you going to be in:p
Just let me know where Powershit Ripoffs will be;)

4....Millennium Technologies, LeoVince, GP Tech, and Pit Bull.

I guess the Corona guys will have them holding up there stuff....

[Rising]

Having seen your product, the main reason why it fails is that you have made the part modular, thus creating a weak point, where as the Pit Bull product is a solid piece that is built to be used at the track not for the convieance of shipping.
:

I have not seen either of these products, but if one is modular and the other is not, doesn't that mean they are different designs? I am not picking sides, just asking a simple question.

[Chip@KWS]

I have not seen either of these products, but if one is modular and the other is not, doesn't that mean they are different designs? I am not picking sides, just asking a simple question.


If Suzuki makes a GSX-R1000 frame that is welded together and I make one that is bolted together and they are exactly the same in every other respects then I have still stolen there design and then manufactured it differently.

If I steal your song that you wrote with a guitar and then play it on the Piano then I still stole your song.

[Roach]

I guess it's the difference between taking orders and selling product. (edit-I didn't mean for this to sound smart assed, we try to talk with every stand customer and explain the options/product avilable and not everyone does that)

Unlike your online store, ours offers more than pit bull. I wasn't talking about "selling" someone something. A good salesman can always sell whatever he wants though, yes, especially when it's a good product.

But honestly? The vortex one has a nifty axle pocket on the side of it (no one else has that to my knowledge), isn't a piece of junk, and costs less. Thats a good value in my book. I have no qualms about having them on the site.

We also use and sell Madstandz, which are very nice and well made by a guy in PA. They're made from aluminum (Which pitbull doesn't offer). They weigh half as much, and have held up under heavy use (we use them every day in our service shop, and at the racetrack). So again, they're a good value.

And to answer your question Darrin - I have a madstandz, and a pitbull that came with my R6 :) The GP bikes all come with their own stands.

- Roach

[Handicapped Racer]

Which brand of flat-black spraypaint to use that would cover up the Pit Bull stickers on the tire tree perhaps??


Early scheib "negro":D

[Hyperdyne]

Early scheib "negro":D

OK, I don't who you are, that's funny right there... :D

[Chip@KWS]

Early scheib "negro":D

:crackup: :crackup:

[chas]

What if I want my stand in Gold with red handles? Can PS supply that for me?

Funny, we just picked up two new bikes this past week and my girl friend asked me do we have anymore rear stands left, or did you give them all away when we sold the other bikes?

Well to answer the question, yes I gave the PitBull Stands with the bikes I sold, and now need two more, but that's okay. The two we gave away with the bikes were single sided swing armed stands and now we need standard stands.

So, who is best to supply PB stands in the Woodstock GA area is the big question?

I know when I was looking for a work table for my 2-stroke I had some options. I went with the higher priced superior made product rather then the options out there. Why? Well the first was because Carlos Neves makes one hell of a work table and makes it based on what you want in terms of dimensions. The second was because the options were less in quality and material then Carlos' table. Dragging it from the shop to the track and back season over season will add wear and tear to anything. I want something that will last forever, and his table will do that. The other options out there would not.

I had spent money when I first started racing that was thrown away because I tried to buy cheaper, and end up giving the crap away, or throwing it away. After my first season I learned, spend more now and don't replace a year or two down the road.

So PitBull it will be.

[chas]

But honestly? The vortex one has a nifty axle pocket on the side of it (no one else has that to my knowledge), isn't a piece of junk, and costs less. Thats a good value in my book. I have no qualms about having them on the site.


Okay, you know what needs to be on the front stand? A way to hang brake calipers. A hook, or something so when I am changing the front wheel I don't need to let them dangle there on the brake hoses.

So does some one have this already? I know my 2-stroke tuner wanted to add this to my Battle Factory front stand he had already modified to add roller bearings to the triple tree pin so the front end could move freely while on the stand.

[G 97]

Early scheib "negro":D

LMFAO:crackup:

[G 97]

Okay, you know what needs to be on the front stand? A way to hang brake calipers. A hook, or something so when I am changing the front wheel I don't need to let them dangle there on the brake hoses.

.

Modified coat hanger works like a charm.:up:

[dtalbott]

And to answer your question Darrin - I have a madstandz, and a pitbull that came with my R6 :) The GP bikes all come with their own stands.

- Roach

I asked because I have only used the Pitbull stands.

Thanks.

[AM # 726]

I have pit bull products (minus a steering damp) and love them. Its all I will buy.

[Roach]

I asked because I have only used the Pitbull stands.
Thanks.

Don't get me wrong ... there's a ton of junk stands out there. Anytime someone brings a bike to the shop and has an LP stand, we tell them to keep it and use one of our own :D

But the fact remains that they bought them, and they use them. And that's a product that is complete junk (but it was cheap!).

My initial remark was specific to this case: You have two products that are nearly (or are actually) identical. One is cheaper than the other. Unless no one in the US sells powerstands (which isn't the case), many people are going to buy them for that reason. I already see powerstands at the track, and I see bikes with their stickers on them (for contingency). I haven't actually used one ... but if it's as identical as everyone says, then ... well, it's the same thing.

It's no different than any other "knock-off" product. If people didn't buy them on ethical grounds, they wouldn't sell. They do.

Most people don't really care especially when it's a product that is being distributed through normal retail channels, nor do most retailers. That's why I said that the people here are not a direct representation of the consumer market.

Doesn't make it "right" by any means, I was merely pointing out the reality. As PS noted - they're distributed through a major US distributor. I'll bet that lots of shops (not talking race shops - many folks actually go to local dealers/shops) will sell them for the convenience and larger margin provided by that alone.

- Roach

[mad brad]

Wow...I'm going to step out on a limb and say this is the stupidest thing I've seen in a very long time.

I dont know the owner of PitBull, I've spoken to him on the phone for a minute and he was a very nice guy. From what I've read here they give very strong support to many racers.

Now lets REALLY break this down. You guys are throwing a pissy fit about a tire tree and stands being "copied" by Power Stands. What about the other 30+ companies who make stands that are no more imaginative or different than anything Powerstands makes? It's a stand, theres only so far you can really go with it. It's a simple lever with a place to balance an object.

Now lets go to the tire tree. Did they copy it? Hell maybe but it seems if the information is correct and it weighs that much less it isnt a direct knockoff. Something must be different.

This is America guys, a place where people work very hard everyday to take the status quo and improve it to make our lives better. This is good for the consumer and for manufacturers. Competition creates improvement in products.

I dont see anyone on here bashing any of the race body companies who make their living copying someone elses work. yes they are all a little different but they use the same materials and the same shapes. Who made the first race body? Maybe they should sue. Who made the first inline 4? The first tire warmer? The first adjustable shock? The first steering damper? The first adjustable rearset? The first plastic kneepuck?

All of these products have been copied, reworked, improved upon over the years to bring us all CHOICES in the market...but we wouldnt want to pick on PB for taking an existing design and improving it like with the steering damper would we?

Sorry but I like having choices.

I know alot of guys who got sponsored by PowerStands and they helped them out a bunch. Gave them incredible pricing on tire warmers and other goods. Guys who have to pinch pennies to race got support from them when no one else would even look at them. That goes a long way with alot of people.

Flame me for not jumping on the bandwagon and slapping asses with you guys but this is lame.

yep. if chip has his way, everyone would only be able to drive a ford.

unless the people who built covered wagons got pissed.

my advice to powerstands dude, is to stop posting. the bandwagoneers won't quit unless you agree to stop making stands, and get in the bread line. i wonder if medtronic is pissed that other companies make pacemakers? :rolleyes:

[STT-GUY]

Unlike your online store, ours offers more than pit bull. I wasn't talking about "selling" someone something. A good salesman can always sell whatever he wants though, yes, especially when it's a good product.

But honestly? The vortex one has a nifty axle pocket on the side of it (no one else has that to my knowledge), isn't a piece of junk, and costs less. Thats a good value in my book. I have no qualms about having them on the site.

We also use and sell Madstandz, which are very nice and well made by a guy in PA. They're made from aluminum (Which pitbull doesn't offer). They weigh half as much, and have held up under heavy use (we use them every day in our service shop, and at the racetrack). So again, they're a good value.

And to answer your question Darrin - I have a madstandz, and a pitbull that came with my R6 :) The GP bikes all come with their own stands.
- Roach

Agreed..... I have not seen the Aluminum stand you speak of, sound cool as the weight of the PB is my one and only (very small) gripe. How much are these Aluminium stands?

[Roach]

Agreed..... I have not seen the Aluminum stand you speak of, sound cool as the weight of the PB is my one and only (very small) gripe. How much are these Aluminium stands?

For you my friend? I make you a special deal! My children may not eat tonight, but I like you! :D

Jokes aside ... we sell them for about the same price as the pitbull basic stands, maybe $10 less. I don't sell many of them over the web though, Steve sells them through the race shop.

- Roach

[STT-GUY]

For you my friend? I make you a special deal! My children may not eat tonight, but I like you! :D

Jokes aside ... we sell them for about the same price as the pitbull basic stands, maybe $10 less. I don't sell many of them over the web though, Steve sells them through the race shop.

- Roach

Excellent. Selling mostly at the shop makes sense because whan you put in someone's hands and the feel the weight difference that's pretty dramatic.

BTW - The axle pocket is a very bad idea, I just love various paddock grunge stuck to the lithium grease.

[Spooner]

Actually Pit Bull has a little peg thing that attaches to the interior 'axle' on the stand. Sorry its hard to explain..

http://www.pit-bull.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=24_181&products_id=202

Its nice because you put the axle OVER the peg so you don't get a bunch of grime built up in it like you do with the vortex pocket design..

Oh and powerstands-nice job being the second company to rip off CRG's!

[powerstands]

[QUOTE=powerstands;1493682]Accepting 07 racer sponsorship.


http://www.powerstands.com/images/kingpin.jpg
Available Feb 07.
This is a simple YES or NO question, is the stand pictured on the right actually a putbull stand powder coated?

NO.
4. PB claimed knock off of their design. Kingpin wheel tree is an expansion of PowerStands product offering and was in development/prototype stage when Pit Bull released their tire tree. Kingpin has features that allows for very compact storage and transportation, which has always been the key feature in PowerStands product line. PB tire tree is 'Over Sized 2' at shipping bill rate of 70lbs. with UPS. Kingpin is only 25lbs actual weight and not over sized for UPS. They are similar products with similar functions, but we preferred our own Kingpin design from our own R&D.

Thank you for taking the time to 'hear' our side of the story.

[powerstands]

I would hope so.. That's the idea behind sponsorship. You give them money and product and they display it.


Yep, isn't it exactly what Chip is doing for PB?

[Strick]

NO.
4. PB claimed knock off of their design. Kingpin wheel tree is an expansion of PowerStands product offering and was in development/prototype stage when Pit Bull released their tire tree. Kingpin has features that allows for very compact storage and transportation, which has always been the key feature in PowerStands product line. PB tire tree is 'Over Sized 2' at shipping bill rate of 70lbs. with UPS. Kingpin is only 25lbs actual weight and not over sized for UPS. They are similar products with similar functions, but we preferred our own Kingpin design from our own R&D.

Thank you for taking the time to 'hear' our side of the story.


So answer Chip's question about when the Pit Bull was released.

Also since they are so "similar" in design, what makes yours more "compact"?

[Turbotech]

I'm a wrench by trade so buying good high quality tools is nothing new to me. Now with that said I have two sets of new-front and standard rear pitbull stands, and every time I hoist one of my bikes on them it makes me smile..Why, :D
#1 Because I now if the bike falls over it's my fault , not the stands..
#2 Original design, made by a motorcycle supporter in the USA..
#3 Built like a brick shithouse and will last forever, had one fall off a open trailer and bounce down the road, cracked a wheel and took chunks out of the road..Got a new wheel for free, with a phone call.
#4 They just plain work...Good.
And to anyone saying this is cheaper or thats lighter or blah blah, A bike is heavy and expensive, the stand holding up your investment should be as well..

[powerstands]

So basiclly what your saying is.....Yes you stole the designs, but its not illegal (as determined by you)
Once again, your company's main focus is price point

Not true. PB's claims against PowerStands are anti-competitive and not true.

PB claimed having patent on the tire tree when in fact Pit Bull does not have any patent on the tire tree. Not even a "pending" patent application with the US PTO?

the keywords are "prior art" & "public domain". Did PB merely took ideas & prior arts from the public domain on hanging tires and claimed it as their original idea to hang tires?

We had a very open discussion with PB's attorney Larry W. Brantley about PB non-defensible patent at the Law Offices of Waddey&Patterson P.C.. Here's their phone number if anyone wishes to confirm. 256-535-4400, Huntsville, Alabama.

your company's main focus is price point
PowerStands stride to make all of our products more user friendly with better features, quality and lower costs.

[jigmoore]

So at what point did this thread jump the shark?

[g1k]

For you my friend? I make you a special deal! My children may not eat tonight, but I like you! :D

Jokes aside ... we sell them for about the same price as the pitbull basic stands, maybe $10 less. I don't sell many of them over the web though, Steve sells them through the race shop.

- Roach

**Edit (I had this directed at Roach, but really, it's open for discussion for all... I misread Roach's stance on the issues at hand <-- Sorry)

Isn't the Maddstandz aluminum front stand almost exactly a copy of the PB front stand in shape and design. The only difference is the material (Al vs steel) and the color of the hose used on the 4 fingers that support the fork?

I have a madd standz front, and it is so identical that the piutbull tripple tree attachemnt works perfect with it.

I'm not trying to start a pissing match either, I own a PB copy (Maddstandz), a few PB's and a suzuki stand (don;t know who suzuki rebadged it from, and it's also the best rear stand I have because of the increased leveraage). I support PB and do not support powerstands (their alternatijng black and white logo makes me feel ill) on this issue.

I won't be buying any china copy 1: because it appears the idea/design was stolen and there are numerous examples of china stealing intellectual property/ designs from other countries/companies. I work in the auto industry and have 1st hand knowledge of this is. 2: Because I do not believe in sending my $ to China so they can essentially make us slaves.

But back to the point, how is the maddstandz copy of the PB stand any different? Is it because the material is different? Is it bacuase the AL is not bent near the handle but made from several sections welded together?




Ryan

[TrackStar]

I think the made in the USA argument is hilarious. Lifting Japanese bikes with American stands and beating your chests about how good it feels to support American made products. How many of you Patriots are sporting Pakistani leathers?

[mad brad]

this whole thread is ridiculous.

[Buckwild]

I think the made in the USA argument is hilarious. Lifting Japanese bikes with American stands and beating your chests about how good it feels to support American made products. How many of you Patriots are sporting Pakistani leathers?

My new signature.

[HPPT]

My new signature.

That's some funny shit. :crackup:

[Kris87]

Powerstands, are you publicly stating that you designed your tree with no knowledge or use of the pit bull tree at all? was it purely coincidence that your tree turned out to be exactly like theirs? the answer to these simple questions would answer it all. thanks.

[Chip@KWS]

Powerstands, are you publicly stating that you designed your tree with no knowledge or use of the pit bull tree at all? was it purely coincidence that your tree turned out to be exactly like theirs? the answer to these simple questions would answer it all. thanks.


:stupid:

[Roach]

But back to the point, how is the maddstandz copy of the PB stand any different? Is it because the material is different? Is it bacuase the AL is not bent near the handle but made from several sections welded together?

Honestly? It's not that different. Of course, I'm not sure there's really that many ways to make a stand. It's not exactly rocket science.

The fact that Madstandz is making them out of aluminum, and he deisgned and built the jig himself (as evidenced by the fact that the main loop on the stand isn't a mandrel bended tube - it's a multi-piece design that's welded in sections, and the handle is actually at a different angle), means he didn't "copy" the design, he created his own thing to compete. It's very similar, but so are all stands.

- Roach

[Big Deezul]

Not true. PB's claims against PowerStands are anti-competitive and not true.

PB claimed having patent on the tire tree when in fact Pit Bull does not have any patent on the tire tree. Not even a "pending" patent application with the US PTO?

the keywords are "prior art" & "public domain". Did PB merely took ideas & prior arts from the public domain on hanging tires and claimed it as their original idea to hang tires?

We had a very open discussion with PB's attorney Larry W. Brantley about PB non-defensible patent at the Law Offices of Waddey&Patterson P.C.. Here's their phone number if anyone wishes to confirm. 256-535-4400, Huntsville, Alabama.


PowerStands stride to make all of our products more user friendly with better features, quality and lower costs.

nm...I just need to puke

[Handicapped Racer]

You all are fighting a loosing battle. This much effort, and he's gonna make hand over foot in loot.

[jigmoore]

You all are fighting a loosing battle. This much effort, and he's gonna make hand over foot in loot.

terrance. please pass the pie.

[John29]

I love that T's post #172 and Mr. BS' post #204 (which quote's T's #172) actually SHOW a Pit Bull tire tree that has been painted black and portrayed as being Mr. BS' product. Look at the wheels, the size and shape of the tubing, the welds. IT'S AN ACTUAL, GENUINE PIT BULL TIRE TREE that the guy painted and put in his own promotional material, portraying it as his own, and he's using said promotional material to defend himself against complaints that he stole Pit Bull's design!

I salute his ballsiness, if nothing else!

[dtalbott]

I salute his balls, if nothing else!

Not quite the words I would have chosen. :D

[John29]

Not quite the words I would have chosen. :D

Yeah, good point...

[Chip@KWS]

I love that T's post #172 and Mr. BS' post #204 (which quote's T's #172) actually SHOW a Pit Bull tire tree that has been painted black and portrayed as being Mr. BS' product. Look at the wheels, the size and shape of the tubing, the welds. IT'S AN ACTUAL, GENUINE PIT BULL TIRE TREE that the guy painted and put in his own promotional material, portraying it as his own, and he's using said promotional material to defend himself against complaints that he stole Pit Bull's design!

I salute his ballsiness, if nothing else!

But.....his stand fits in a smaller box and we can call Pit Bulls lawyer and he can confirm it....

I don't know why this has to be so complicated. :rolleyes:

[Britt]

So you make it out of thinner cheaper material, skip the welds, add a few hardware store quality bolts, throw it in a small box and ship it, THAT makes it better quality?
IDF'nTS.

And YES that IS a PitBull Tree in the ad.

[g1k]

I know how powerstandz knows so much about the shipping of the PB stand, he was pissed he had to pay that much to have a PB stand shipped to him so he could copy it...


R

[Mongo]

chas - Rob and the guys up at Suzuki of Canton stock them.